GoldenEye: Source Forums
Debriefing => Impressions & Feedback => Topic started by: evoepitaph on December 20, 2010, 11:39:22 pm
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I personally think removing head shots completely would make this feel more like the Golden Eye 64 days but I'm sure tons of people would complain about a head shot removal. However I certainly think head shots should be made a great degree harder to pull off.
I'm perfectly fine with head shots being in games (meaning I won't normally voice opposition) but when the kill messages on the top of the screen constantly scroll "X was killed by Y with GUN with a HEADSHOT" it just seems a little too much.
There is supposed to be some kind of trade off in games where head shots are harder to pull off but result in much more damage. Well they are certainly no harder to do than normal body shots at the moment.
That's really the only thing I find negative about this game, I played a few years ago and you guys really have come miles from that release.
TL;DR - Head shots are too easy for everyone, make them harder.
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TL;DR - Head shots are too easy for everyone, make them harder.
Yeah, lets just make all of the heads extremely small.
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As you don't die instantly, it's just easier to aim for the head. Also, Keyboard + Mouse helps a lot more than a N64 controller...
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Be prepared to be stunned (yah that's right I am about to blow away your baseless claim):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/killermonkey01/ouch_pwned.png)
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One of the main reasons headshots weren't as common on the 64 is because autoaim aimed towards the torso. But autoaim was an aid to the cumbersome controls that many shooters suffer from on consoles.
We have mouse & keyboard, which reigns supreme over all control pads for shooting games and precision aiming. So there's no need to have an autoaim feature, which would only hinder our aim on the PC.
What it boils down to is you have to accept that on the PC, Goldeneye is never going to be totally the exact same experience as it was on this 64. It would be poor design choice to self-impose arbitrary design restrictions of the N64 title, restricting the potential for improvements and adapting the game to the PC environment.
Fact is the most hardcore GE64 players never played with autoaim and almost exclusively aimed for headshots. The average 64 player just went with autoaim.
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Interesting pictures, these boxes are the hit zones for every part of the body I assume. If so, I don't understand how I don't get more head shots. I think the issue is probably that... I die all the time, more than I kill, but I don't always get head shots, even after releasing magazines of bullets, and when your up against the pro's, they can turn and head shot you in the blink of an eye. The only thing to do is keep practising, you'll have good games and bad games, but the more you play, the better you'll get at taking the head shots. I read somewhere on the forum that the best place to aim is at the base of the neck, that will up your chance of hitting the enemy and lessen the chance of bullets missing altogether.
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even after releasing magazines of bullets
A lot of people say this exact sentence and don't realize they answered their own problem. You are activating the player's invuln period when you spam them with bullets and the pro that pops you in the skull is laughing at you wasting your ammo.
That is is the distinction in GoldenEye from other FPS's. You need to overcome the urge to spam and hope you plant a headshot and actually AIM and plant the headshot every time. A pro is not lucky, he is skilled.
As for my images, you can clearly see the head hitbox in GES is approx 1/4 the size of the body. So to say it is easier to get head shots than body shots is outrageous and baseless. You can also obviously see that our hitboxes hug the body A LOT more than those of TF2 and other Valve games.
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I'm well aware of all of that. And also I don't think I ever claimed that the hitboxes were too large but you sure would have blow my baseless claim away if I had! The problem is the speed at which the players move as compared to a game such as TF2 is different/slower. I guess it could easily be my problem being used to faster paced games and therefor being able to easily track the heads on players but it doesn't seem like head shots give the rest of the community a whole lot of trouble either.
I'm not complaining about the head shots because I can't get them. I'm complaining (if you want to call it that, doesn't matter to me) and giving feedback because it's too easy and takes away from the game experience for me anyway. But that's what feedback is for isn't it? Enough people feel a certain way and you change it to suit the needs of the majority, and if the idea falls into the minority it doesn't make it to the change log.
Changes doesn't necessarily need to be made to the head either.
Maybe even make a server toggle that makes headshots worth the same damage as a body shot? Might be a good way to test things out first. Not sure how hard that would be though, so just throwing out thoughts :)
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No offense but that doesn't make any sense.
What is the point of hitting this smaller target if the damage is the same...Wouldn't everyone pros or otherwise just spam body center then? I don't get it.
Sorta sounds to me, personally, like you are saying "I'm great at hitting headshots and so are some other people so lets all agree to nerf our ability to show any 'skill = reward' dynamic"
I don't find that to be in service of the community, the game, realism or the original game.
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A lot of people say this exact sentence and don't realize they answered their own problem. You are activating the player's invuln period when you spam them with bullets and the pro that pops you in the skull is laughing at you wasting your ammo.
Yeah, I take your point KM, but I have tried the tapping method on the mouse button as well, and I don't seem to be any better off, I wonder sometimes if there's just a difficult learning curve or some trick to the gameplay that takes a long time to master, Unfortunately at the moment im creating an expansion pack for a game single handedly which as you can imagine takes a lot of time, but I know I need to spend a lot more time on this game.
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Sigh...I think this might be going over the heads of many people here. The idea of the thread was "head shots feel a little off because in the original Golden Eye head shots were not what the game was all about" (regardless of the control scheme).
I just made suggestions about what might be done, if anything. And instead of building upon that initial thought it seems people just lock onto 1 specific and try to shoot it down. Sure go ahead and shoot the whole idea down that's how this works, but stop implying that I'm suggesting head hit boxes are too big so they should be made smaller or similar focused accusations.
I'm merely saying "I think something's up with head shots, what can we do about it? Here is some food for thought to play around with"
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Would this thread even exist if there was no word of 'headshot' in the death messages? Spend a few minutes contemplating that. I know that's not what your gripe is with, but consider if you were never aware of headshots, you would simply not be complaining about it now.
The message is there to draw a distinction and inform the player. Headshots are there to give a functional purpose to aiming. Removing headshots would simply nullify the aiming system along with removing an element of skill from playing.
Believe it or not your suggestion actually moves GE:S away from being as faithful to the original as it is. Not only does it fall outside of the mod's design philosophy but it also lacks reasoning to back it up as a valid argument. You can denialistically point at people and tell them they're not seeing your point of view, or you could consider the possibility that there's a reason that you're perhaps the only person who finds this fault with the game... Perhaps it is you who have misunderstood the game rather than the players misunderstood you?
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Your base complaint is that headshots are too easy.
I refuted that complaint by showing you the relative size of our head hitbox compared to body.
You insist no one gets your point, that is actually true. True because your "point" lacks any reason. You asserted that you wanted to generate discussion, but provide absolutely no idea of your own on how to possibly fix the "issue". Disabling damage difference between headshots and body shots is not a solution to your basic problem that headshots are too easy.
And if you think headshots were not where goldeneye damage was focused you would be 100% wrong. All of our damage scaling is based off of actual goldeneye 64 values, including hitbox differentials.
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If you want to play the game by just spamming at players until they eventually die, go ahead. But I don't think that anyone who played Goldeneye 007 and understood the aim function that it offered is going to join your cause.
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Have to agree with KM, VC, and Mangley on this one buddy, anyway... I don't think headshots are easy, I struggle to get a headshot most of the time but then my aim is not great.
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You need to overcome the urge to spam and hope you plant a headshot and actually AIM and plant the headshot every time. A pro is not lucky, he is skilled.
Even when you do actually AIM, it seems to be random. I've gone toe to toe with people, I fire first, aimed right at the head, no headshot, shoot again, headshot, no kill. He turns around, shoots me spamming, and headshots.
I've personally found if you spam, your more likely to get a headshot than if you aim.
The only gun I've found that does REALLY well for headshots is the DD44. Especially at long distances.
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I've personally found if you spam, your more likely to get a headshot than if you aim.
The only gun I've found that does REALLY well for headshots is the DD44. Especially at long distances.
Got people firin' AR33s and Cougar Magnum, DD44's Kind of a cripple.
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We welcome suggestions, and we love debates that would lead to enhance the game for everyone. Not change it completely.
That is why you are seeing resistance in our arguments against your point. We have been living years to be faithful to the original and all you wish to do is have us second guess one of the main mechanics of goldeneye. And out of all of this you are claiming to be doing so because you are expert at making headshots and that's why you want them nerfed...
Really it's akin to Michael Jordan strapping his legs together because before he was too good at getting slam dunks, and hoping the basketball commission would feel its appropriate and make it a rule...analogies are good. By all means make the game more challenging in whatever way you need for yourself, but fans of this mod want to get their skill rewarded and no one has ever complained about headshots in game, ever.
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Additionally, let's all reflect on the title and the later suggestion, and how much they differ.
"headshots need to be toned down a little"
Maybe even make a server toggle that makes headshots worth the same damage as a body shot? Might be a good way to test things out first. Not sure how hard that would be though, so just throwing out thoughts :)
Toned down a little = made the SAME as body? That's an extraordinary difference in my book. IDK
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Horizontaly spraying left to right with and AR33 or ZMG is easy. If you spam and aim above someone's head you'll eventualy hit the head. But as said before; one headshot =/= instant kill; it's just the finnishing hit that's registered as a headshot.
I personaly like to know what I hit and personaly don't seem to know your problem. Is it that in your N64 matches you guys were toooaaal noobs or something? (not that I pwned back then or anything)
Maybe this guy refers to the fact that it is now easyer to do it with a mouse? But so is it for everyone else.
The obvious fix is that this guy plays over LAN with his buddies and controllers... No offence ;)
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Could just play with me, VC and E-S.
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Could just play with me, VC and E-S.
Why would you wish such an asskicking upon someone?
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Could just play with me, VC and E-S.
;D
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Why would you wish such an asskicking upon someone?
Play with good players to pick up their strategies, thats how I became better.
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Why would you wish such an asskicking upon someone?
Plus o- oh right.
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In some ways I agree with the TC. I can speak from experience that it seems almost pointless to not abuse the shift key to aim for the head shot due to shooting without the cursor takes too long to land a kill.
There were fire fights where me and my opponent will simply stand in place and shift key fire each other to death at close distances. In the n64 version at most(in my personal games), you will use the cursor for the range shot, but in Source I find myself doing this for even close range.
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There were firefighters where me and my opponent will simply stand in place and shift key fire each other to death at close distances. In the n64 version at most(in my personal games), you will use the cursor for the range shot, but in Source I find myself doing this for even close range.
With me, there are only two ways this can end... and in both of them; you die: 8)
1. I run around you like crazy while knifing your back because you turn too slow (and even if you unzoom your aim is lazy);
2. I laugh because there's 65% chance your first shot doesn't land in my head, I gain invulnerability for a sec and then aim for your head and hit that first, I'll do that twice while you waste your ammo and I end up killing you even though you hit my head 18 times while I hit your head twice.
I'm still not seeing the problem...
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The problem is some people want this to be counterstrike...
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ge_dust2 plox
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Where's deagle frum cs? ;D
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Sitting in aim mode and actually hitting the person as much as you possibly can, even without any movement, will still ensure you have an advantage over the crouch jumping ZMG spammer.
Aim mode gives an accuracy boost (double for some weapons), while jumping around and spamming will ensure you have the least accurate bullet spread possible.
That being said, if you can't aim your weapons, don't try using aim mode to help. You become an easy target and don't capitalize on the effects of aim mode. In this case, it's better to run around spamming than sit in one place spamming.
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Duck and stay still to increase accuracy that is counter strike.
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Not really. That's noob strike. Pro counter strike does it by glitching the animations, and firing their AWPs while moving full speed by reversing direction and firing on the frame the motion vector crosses zero or by crouching while jumping and firing on the exact frame they touch the ground so they get perfect accuracy while on your screen it looks like they're as hyper as a jack russel fucking terrier but you can't hit the barnside of a broad even when you do sit still and crouch.
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That being said, if you can't aim your weapons, don't try using aim mode to help. You become an easy target and don't capitalize on the effects of aim mode. In this case, it's better to run around spamming than sit in one place spamming.
Very true.
And why free aim is me forte`
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Sitting in aiyum mode and actually hitting the person as much as you possibly can, even without any movement, will still ensure you have an advayntage over the crouch jumping ZMG spayummer.
Aiyum mode gives an ayccuracy boost (double for some waypons), while jumping around and spayumming will ensure you have the least ayccurate bullet spread possible.
That being said, if you can't aiyum your waypons, don't try using aiyum mode to help. You become an easy tayrget and don't capitalize on the effects of aiyum mode. In this case, it's better to run around spayumming than sit in one place spayumming.
Fixed.
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I would actually welcome some form of 'reduction' in how easy it is to get headshots... Playing with a bunch of randoms (9 of 10 of which all happily state they've played the game for a grand total of 10 or 20 minutes to date), you see nothing but headshot kills.
Literally 8 or 9 out of 10 kills are headshots. It just seems a bit silly and frustrating, that's all. I'm dead-accurate with the aim mode (and it shows if everyone has good pings), but even then I can land a full clip of headshots into someone, have it fail to kill them, and have them take me down in a shot or two with a PP7 by way of a headshot while jumping around and just spamming wildly. It happens every time and it just feels so wrong. In fact, I can't actually recall a single time I died while playing today that WASN'T a headshot!
Even when playing against some of the best folk I knew back in the N64 days, it was never this consistent. Source just seems to be a magnet for headshot kills, and I find that the aim mode rarely helps at all with obtaining headshots. I have much more success just shooting from the hip and hoping from the best...
This is actually my ONLY 'complaint' with the mod now. Everything else has been improved tenfold in every sense, and I can happily say that it's the most enjoyable experience I've had with the mod to date, but this one thing just irks me. The only other thing I have a problem with is the utterly useless hit registration when someone's ping goes over 150... They might aswell be invulnerable. But I can't change that so I'm not too concerned... That, and because over half the people in any Aus server are from overseas so they're all playing on a 250+ ping anyway.
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Literally 8 or 9 out of 10 kills are headshots.
Out of completely coincidental convenience, let's look at some real stats. I played tonight and saved my console log. (This is actually for a non-GES project, though that doesn't mean it won't someday influence GES...)
Players involved: 21, including myself.
Fatalities recorded: 304.
Fatalities due to headshot as finishing move: 147. 48.3% Literally not even five out of every ten kills.
VC's recorded kills: 156. 51.3%
VC's recorded headshot kills: 89. 29.2% overall, 57.0% of personal. Literally not even six out of every ten kills.
Not-VC's recorded kills: 148. 48.6%
Not-VC's recorded headshot kills: 58. 19.0% overall, 39.1% of said-group. Literally not even four out of every ten kills.
Okay, this is a console log, so it doesn't report kills that had non-lethal headshot-involvement. AR33 can do 70 head then 35 body and kill without it being logged as a headshot since the headshot wasn't the finishing blow, but there are also plenty of times when a headshot finishes off a player that would've fought back if you body-checked them, so let's call that even for our purposes of countering your melodramatic claim.
You say a very important thing in your message.even then I can land a full clip of headshots into someone
a full clip of headshots
clip headshots
Just because you are aiming doesn't mean that your weapon will not gain spread. Something like Phantom, which benefits strongly from being sighted, will open up into a spam hose if you hold the trigger. Plus, if your accuracy is enough to hit someone's head with between 7 and 80 consecutive headshots, maybe you're doing something else wrong...
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I love how much I learn from these threads :)
Maybe the Wiki should be more l2play informative.
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Large population sampling might also bolster our position: www.ges-stats.com. according to that website, headshots percentage across three servers is a grand total of 5.79% of all kills.....
What you think the stats are and what they really are is always always different, usually by a large margin like you see here.
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I wholeheartedly disagree. Headshots are fine as is. If anything, shot distance might be one place to look for balancing. A PP7 should not be able to get a one-shot headshot kill from one tower of cradle all the way to the other side of the map. I believe in the N64 version the bullets only went a certain distance depending on the bullet type.
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*edit* You know what, you're right VC, I was being a bit melodramatic... I posted that straight out of a pretty hair-of-the-teeth match, so the emotions were running strong.
As much as it SEEMS to myself and others that headshots are an over-abundance in GE:S, I realize that in no way is the actual gameplay affected in a negative manner. It's almost exactly as I remember it on the N64, which is fantastic. It's also plainly apparent to me that my experience on this release of GE:S is being somewhat impacted upon by the sheer number of people joining from overseas with extremely high pings. But this has to be a good sign, right? Must be really popular but not have enough servers over there to accommodate everyone!
I'm happy with how things are. And thanks for the information breakdown ;)
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I believe in the N64 version the bullets only went a certain distance depending on the bullet type.
Believe again. I used Dam for my firing range. As in, straight down. All the way. That's pretty far. It probably had a clipping plane in cases like Cradle, where the clipping was required to render the map, and maybe Surface (I have not tested there), but if you could see it you could hit it in all my exploration.
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Yeah, you're right... The bullets probably hit a clip distance and stopped. I remember in surface with paintball mode on, I was able to hit a sentry tower from pretty far away using the PP7, but a further tower did not have the paint splotch when I zoomed in with the sniper rifle after shooting with the PP7. Most likely again due to clip plane. Good explanation, I had not thought of that.
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A PP7 should not be able to get a one-shot headshot kill from one tower of cradle all the way to the other side of the map.
I'd call this luck. Other times you cannot hit anything that far away.
If you could always do one hit kills with that gun on that distance it would be an issue.
But i don't think this is the case, is it?
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Today: BOO! Someone killed me from tower to tower on Cradle with a PP7 headshot, pistols go too far!
Tomorrow: BOO! Someone killed me from tower to tower on Cradle with a rifle, I spawned with a pistol so I couldn't do anything but die like a bitch!
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_O_ @VC