Print

Add to Reputation:  

What do you think of this post?

I agree I disagree  
Comment:

[Flash2011]

Ok, I haven't posted in a few days because I wanted to get a better feel of the Goldeneye:Source gameplay.

After learning about the invulnerability mechanic, which is after every time you get hit you are invulnerable from damage for about half a second, I decided to test out the game again.

One of my original gripes was about how I thought the aiming felt really outdated and the aiming was inaccurate, I figured It may have been that I was unloading clips on people and not killing them because of the invuln.

After discussing it with other players and testing it out more I can say this: The invuln mechanic is bad, it makes it very difficult to get kills and doesn't promote skill. You could say that "Take your shots carefully, they'll be more rewarding" but the truth is that if you're using an automatic gun you're not going to try and take your shots. Whats the point in using an SMG if you have place your shots like a sniper rifle?

The guns I found to be the most enjoyable are the pistols and the rifles with SMG's being pretty bad. The Magnum is cool cause you can 1 shot head shots and because the time it takes to shoot again is about half a second you never encounter the invuln.

It is odd to see that if you use an SMG on someone you aren't dropping them very fast. The ZMG is an example of this. It's a cool gun, I like how fast it shoots, but the unfortunate side affect of this is that it's HIGHLY inaccurate and since the Rate of Fire is so fast only a few of your shots register.

The guy with the ZMG should win more duels than he guy with the PP7 because he has more bullets and a higher RoF.

A few argument i've heard to this removal of invuln were "People die to fast" and "GE:64 used it".

People die to fast: So what? It makes it more skill based because the less skill based player won't be able to take on the skilled player. CounterStrike does this and it's arguably the most popular FPS of all time.

GE:64 used it: Times have changed, theres reasons for why cars aren't made with the way they use to be, theres  reasons why clothes don't look the same year after year, theres a reason why games today aren't exactly like the games of yesteryear. Just because GE64 used it doesn't mean it's a phenomenal mechanic, it means it was phenomenal mechanic in 1997.

You developers are a smart group and if your concern is that people are dying too fast i'm sure you guys can figure out a way around it. Maybe start everyone off with body armor?

On a side note, are we to expect any MORE game modes? As it appears it seems like most of the game modes are just the standard GE:64 game modes.

[namajnaG]

After discussing it with other players and testing it out more I can say this: The invuln mechanic is bad, it makes it very difficult to get kills and doesn't promote skill. You could say that "Take your shots carefully, they'll be more rewarding" but the truth is that if you're using an automatic gun you're not going to try and take your shots. Whats the point in using an SMG if you have place your shots like a sniper rifle?

Use Burst-Fire, Maybe? That's what I always do and it works like a charm.

On a side note, are we to expect any MORE game modes? As it appears it seems like most of the game modes are just the standard GE:64 game modes.

Yes, In fact there is one in the works that might interest you, Here's the thread. http://forums.goldeneyesource.net/index.php/topic,6270.0.html

And there are several other third-party gamemodes, But they are not available on every server. I believe TG's server has them all, And if you wish to try them out, There's a voting option on the server for gamemodes.

[Entropy-Soldier]

Honestly, i think the invulnerability period is one of the things that sets GE64 apart from other shooters.  Getting kills doesn't take less skill, or more skill, it just allows for a different kind of strategy.

Rapid fire guns still have their place, but will no doubt loose out to more powerful, slower weapons assuming the wielder can place his shots.  However, by using a faster firing weapon you're ensuring that you can land constant hits and perhaps disorient your opponent in the process.  If you're against someone who knows how to move around, then the rapid fire guns are just about as useful as the rest of them.

[Flash2011]

Use Burst-Fire, Maybe? That's what I always do and it works like a charm.

I do burst fire, but burst firing guns that aren't designed to HAVE to burst fire is awkward. AR33 & KF7 have burst fire features, but no other gun does.

Also having to burst guns like the ZMG means that its going to take longer to kill someone cause your having to burst. I shouldn't be FORCED to burst because it's not a recoil system that is forcing me to burst, its an odd invuln system that is forcing me. My bullets are connecting, but they're being mitigated by the invuln system. This also means your damage output is restricted by the invuln system, you could say your DPS has a hard cap to it. You're almost better off just using any pistol.

[Flash2011]

Honestly, i think the invulnerability period is one of the things that sets GE64 apart from other shooters.  Getting kills doesn't take less skill, or more skill, it just allows for a different kind of strategy.

What set GE:64 apart from other shooters was definitely not this as I don't one person that even knew it was in the game. GE:64 was different because at the time when there wasn't copious amounts of console shooters the whole Objective system was cool and just having a 4 way multiplayer experience was cool. It's 2011 now.

[/quote]
Rapid fire guns still have their place, but will no doubt loose out to more powerful, slower weapons assuming the wielder can place his shots.  However, by using a faster firing weapon you're ensuring that you can land constant hits and perhaps disorient your opponent in the process.  If you're against someone who knows how to move around, then the rapid fire guns are just about as useful as the rest of them. [/quote]

You shouldn't have worry about your bullets not registering because of invulnerability. If the recoil on Run and Gun was A LOT higher then people would be more invested in taking careful shots, but as it is the recoil of a Run and Gun compared to an Aimer is negligible. The only guns I've seen that are really good with Aiming are the Moon Raker and the Magnum.

[markpeterjameslegg]

I know what your saying Flash2011, this has been mentioned so often, unfortunately this mod is designed in such a way that it will only ever appeal to the few rather than the many. It is an unfortunate fact that the servers are empty due to this as well but this is GE:S, that's the way it is made and it was made clear to me in the past that they would rather the mod died than change the core mechanics of the gameplay. But I continue to be a fan, it's as close to the Goldeneye experience as were ever going to get, it continues to get better in all other aspects and the next release is going to be amazing so stick with it buddy.

[Mangley]

Take away invulnerability then you throw away skill. Automatics will always reign supreme without an invulnerability period. For more on this see Counter-Strike or Call of Duty or any other 'current' popular shooter. The fact is that spamming pistols in these games pretty much replicates automatic fire which is the only way they can even approach to balance that fact.

With invulnerability good player with a PP7 can take out an average player with an RCP90, yes, but a good player with an RCP90 can take out a room full of average players with RCP90s.

Again I think you need to drop the perspective of something being old meaning that it's 'outdated' or automatically inferior to current trends. It's different, and if you dislike it for that then you're playing the wrong game. The remake you want came out last year on Wii.

[VC]

if you're using an automatic gun you're not going to try and take your shots

Then you're not thinking.

Let's try real-life, where all weapons do 100 damage most of the time, and there is no invuln.  The only reasons to go full automatic are:
1) Suppression.  You are killing the shit out of terrain to keep someone from having a second to look, aim, and fire back.
2) Gangsta driveby bullshit that is more about intimidation and getting away with random assaults/murders.
3) You're dying/doomed anyway so you go Rambo for your last seconds on earth.

"People die to fast" is valid because we allow LTK, which is defined by "people die to any successful attack."  Invuln allows for dogfighting, which is fun to watch and fun to play, despite being unrealistic.  Hence, all gun battles in cinema except for serious war flicks.



There is a very obvious purpose to the SMGs in Goldeneye Source.  Whenever you don't need max damage, or whenever you can't afford the time you need to aim, spraying bullets will work.  SMG combat is all about finishing weakened players ASAP without needing to sight or be certain of your aim.  Unless it's pro-magnum, no one typically goes around with pistol over an SMG in Goldeneye Source when they have an SMG.  The SMG's first shot is often on-par or better than the pistol's first shot, and proper bursting ensures that when you miss, you often get body or limb damage instead of zero damage.

Anyway, we already discussed this in live voice chat, so I shouldn't need to elaborate much further.  Invuln directly nerfs no-skill spamming while rewarding disciplined weapon technique.

[Flash2011]

I know what your saying Flash2011, this has been mentioned so often, unfortunately this mod is designed in such a way that it will only ever appeal to the few rather than the many. It is an unfortunate fact that the servers are empty due to this as well but this is GE:S, that's the way it is made and it was made clear to me in the past that they would rather the mod died than change the core mechanics of the gameplay. But I continue to be a fan, it's as close to the Goldeneye experience as were ever going to get, it continues to get better in all other aspects and the next release is going to be amazing so stick with it buddy.

I hear you, it's sad to see it be like this. I love Goldeneye for what it was and the only hope I had was that one day it would get remade with a modernized feel to it. As it is this mod to me is just nostalgia.

[namajnaG]

I hear you, it's sad to see it be like this. I love Goldeneye for what it was and the only hope I had was that one day it would get remade with a modernized feel to it. As it is this mod to me is just nostalgia.

Nostalgia is one of the main goals of the mod.

"GoldenEye: Source is a total conversion modification of Half-Life 2. It is a fan made artistic recreation, released for free, with only one goal in mind;  to bring the memories and experiences from the original GoldenEye64 back to life using Source' Orange Box Technology.

[Flash2011]

Nostalgia is fine and dandy, but why not ask the players this "Is their anything you would like to see different? Should we change anything? What do you like and dislike about the mod?"

I feel like that isn't even a thought on the devs minds. (They're cool guys though)

[namajnaG]

Well, The Impressions & Feedback forum is there for this, And Dev's read everything that gets into that section, But changing the whole mechanism of the mod is out of the question for them, I hope you understand that.

[Flash2011]

I understand they won't change the CORE mechanic but the invuln is really wacky.

[VC]

why not ask the players

Stagnation.

By proportion, how many people in the world are artists?  How many are musicians?  How many are architects?  Damn fucking few.  Most people are consumers, not creators.  Most people will simply want to consume more of what they already consume at a lower cost of effort.

the invuln is really wacky.

Elaborate, please.

[Flash2011]

Didn't I already explain the wacky part of the invuln in my original post?

I'll explain it again: The invuln system is bad because it caps how fast you can kills someone. It also prevents players from killing one another in a timely manner.

I WAS JUST in a game and I was using the ZMG up close and they had a KF7, the fight took like 10 seconds because we could only do so much damage per second. Neither one of us could unload on each other cause that's pointless. There really is no point in have fully automatic guns, you should faster than the invuln timer. If i can fire 3 shots in half a second and the invuln system is half a second long thats 2 wasted bullets.
That means I have to fire my shots sporadically and I might as well be using a semi automatic weapon. Not only are the auto weapons (besides AR33) less accurate but because of the invuln system it makes them less reliable compared to slower weapons.

If the system was gone it would be more of a matter of who had better aim because If i was really good at aiming in the right places  I could wipe out 2-3 maybe more people in 1 life. As it is, the people with more HP and armor have SUCH HUGE advantage.

In Counterstrike if someone has 10hp and another 100hp, the person with 10hp has a chance of winning because he could get that lucky head shot or maybe he places his shots better. Though the player with 100hp will probably win regardless of how good he is based on the fact he can last longer and maybe a random shot will clip the guy with 10hp.

I don't see the problem with bursting a guy in half a second with 4 bullets. All of them register, do damage and I have the upper hand, but as it is now, if I did that, only 1 bullet would connect giving the opponent plenty of time to react.

Also, if you go up behind someone and point blank them in the head with D5k or KF7, they will always have a chance to turn around fight back because only 1 bullet will register and that doesn't score a kill.