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[Flash2011]

Well, this is really cool. I love GoldenEye:Source its super awesome and I think the devs did a bang up job on recreating a classic. Its almost exactly how I remember GoldenEye on the N64.

However, being exactly how I remember it might be good for nostalgia it doesn't exactly make for great gameplay and what I'm writing about here is about how in order for the game to be good in my opinion it needs to evolve.

First off, there is a reason no plays GoldenEye anymore and games today aren't made like it. It's a very outdated shooter.
The most popular styles of FPS today either utilize the ADS (Aim Down Sight) method or the tap burst fire method (Counter Strike). GE:Source uses neither and instead gives up the old school crosshair on shift.

What I have noticed with the crosshair is that it doesn't seem to do anything really. It isn't making my shots more accurate (if it is making shots more accurate, it's only because i can see where I'm aiming). If I use the crosshair and burst fire, it doesn't increase my accuracy, I can just full auto and its' the same, in or out of holding shift. 
MOST people are going to say, "But GE:64 didn't have a normal crosshair and this source version is a perfect clone if it".  This saying is exactly why FPS aren't made like this anymore, because it's bad mechanics.

The aiming is extremely flawed, no one can really control where they place their shots. You just point and shoot. Aiming and not aiming seem to be no different in how the bullets spread.

Secondly, the guns. The guns need to have more to them than what they are now because basically what this game has is just the same gun over and over just more powerful and who ever has the most powerful gun gets the most kills. An example of this would be the PP7 and DD4, the DD4 shoots a little faster and has 1 more bullet or the AR33 and the KF7, these 2 are almost the same gun. Without recoil there's no real way to differ from each gun. All i've done is search for AR33 or RCP90 and unload on people, which takes forever to kill someone.

Thirdly, the health. It seems like people last forever outside of License to Kill mode, you can unload clips on people and no one dies.  There needs to be a better way to know if you're hitting people or not. Health needs to be scaled down or bullet damage increased (PP7 and DD4 I believe do the same damage and so does AR33 and KF7).

Lastly the mechanics. This is the huge part of my post because most of these mechanics are extremely dated and need to be revamped.  You're releasing on the PC a game that was meant for 4 people with controllers.  Most of the mechanics on the N64 were designed for the N64 and with only 4 people in mind, not up to 20 or more players. An example of this are the maps (some are huge and some are expanded upon), some of the maps remain the same size which is too small for the amount of possible players. The reloading is dated, the downside to unloading your gun is non-existent because all guns reload instantly which gives player the idea that spraying is the best possible method of killing.

Remaking a classic should never be remade word for word because what's the point in that? Movies that are remakes featuring about 99% of the exact same thing are terrible because movie goers feel that if they wanted the original they would just watch the original. Good remakes are movies such as Dawn of the Dead which follows the same plot but is HUGELY expanded on and involves new mechanics if you will, RUNNING ZOMBIES.

Please read this article from IGN. It was very interesting to read about how players act about old classics and why they're not fun anymore.
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/118/1183561p1.html

tl;dr: GE:Source needs to evolve beyond the original game, because the original is just too dated.

[killermonkey]

Thank you for you input, if we were talking about closeness to a retail game, would you say we should strive for Halo 3 or COD 4/5/6/GE: Wii?

[Flash2011]

I'm not saying that this needs to be exactly like Call of Duty or Halo at ALL (Though there is a reason outside of being AAA titles why people play and continue to play them). What i'm trying to say is that you should be evolving what GE:64 was. Take it to a new level expand on what you know.

I'm a game designer (going to school for it) and I do not at all want to sound like i'm hating on your mod, I like it for what is.

I guess what i'm saying is, if people wanted to play GoldenEye:Source they could just as easily pick up GE:64 and get almost the same exact game because very little has changed. Currently as it is I can only play GE:Source for a very short amount of time because I lose interest in it because of the old frustrating mechanics.

[Mangley]

First off, there is a reason no plays GoldenEye anymore and games today aren't made like it. It's a very outdated shooter.
The most popular styles of FPS today either utilize the ADS (Aim Down Sight) method or the tap burst fire method (Counter Strike). GE:Source uses neither and instead gives up the old school crosshair on shift.

So, instead of using more original and faithful aiming mechanics a game should pander to the lowest common denominator and copy mechanics from the most popular games? What's the point in having different games if they are all mechanically the same game?

What I have noticed with the crosshair is that it doesn't seem to do anything really. It isn't making my shots more accurate (if it is making shots more accurate, it's only because i can see where I'm aiming). If I use the crosshair and burst fire, it doesn't increase my accuracy, I can just full auto and its' the same, in or out of holding shift.

Wrong. Using your crosshair increases your bullet accuracy.

Secondly, the guns. The guns need to have more to them than what they are now because basically what this game has is just the same gun over and over just more powerful and who ever has the most powerful gun gets the most kills. An example of this would be the PP7 and DD4, the DD4 shoots a little faster and has 1 more bullet or the AR33 and the KF7, these 2 are almost the same gun. Without recoil there's no real way to differ from each gun. All i've done is search for AR33 or RCP90 and unload on people, which takes forever to kill someone.

All I can say to this is learn to play. We use an invulnerability and damage system that rewards aim and precision and taking careful shots, if you spray at people with powerful weapons you are just going to waste bullets. Use the crosshair, aim for the head, use small bursts of fire.

Lastly the mechanics. This is the huge part of my post because most of these mechanics are extremely dated and need to be revamped.  You're releasing on the PC a game that was meant for 4 people with controllers.  Most of the mechanics on the N64 were designed for the N64 and with only 4 people in mind, not up to 20 or more players. An example of this are the maps (some are huge and some are expanded upon), some of the maps remain the same size which is too small for the amount of possible players. The reloading is dated, the downside to unloading your gun is non-existent because all guns reload instantly which gives player the idea that spraying is the best possible method of killing.

GE:S isn't a clone of GoldenEye 64, our gameplay is suitably adapted for more players and is more scalable. Your gripe about level size is so far the only one that has any validity or sense to it, we're currently working on new features that will solve this, including integrated map voting and dynamic map layout changes allowing areas of maps to be locked off or opened up dynamically depending on player count and game mode.

I'd be interested to know exactly what it is about modern aiming mechanics that makes them superior to older arcade style mechanics, given that games like Quake are still played in professional tournaments.

[killermonkey]

Suggested reading: http://wiki.goldeneyesource.net/index.php/V4.1_Release_Documentation#Gameplay_Fundamentals


I appreciate your angle, however you are not a "game designer" if you are still in school. You are a student who someday, hopefully, will be a game designer. I am not a game designer, this is a hobby of mine.

Anywho, I hope you learn from our game design and apply it in some of your classes!

[Flash2011]

Again, I'm not saying you guys NEED to use modern style aiming systems, but check out Duke Nukem Forever that just came out. No body i've spoken with has said it was fun, the majority of people hate the game.

Why though? Most people say it's because it utilized outdated mechanics and also that the gameplay hasn't aged very well. (Make sure to read the link I posted)

As for the aiming, I've played a good amount and I have BARELY noticed a difference in accuracy when using crosshairs and not (keep in mind i'm the player and not a designer i'm telling you what i'm experiencing). This isn't as much fun because to me it seems to promote more of a "just run and gun". Run and Gun is about as much fun and skillful as button mashing.

Also, Quake being played in competitions still. I don't know, but I've heard others say the same thing and that's cool and all, but how many play Quake to how that don't play Quake?

[killermonkey]

As a future game designer you should not be asking the question of "how many this, whos going to like that, am I cool enough to hang with the COD crowd?"

You should ask: "what makes my game stand out from the crowd?"

In the end, when this COD, pre-teen fueled, lust for immediate reward phase passes you will see games reverting back to the old-style framework that has bolstered so many of these "franchises." When you look deep inside all these AAA titles, they have NOTHING but good graphics. No story, no feeling, no depth, no skill required.

I read the article you posted, and i instantly dismissed it because he said "Half-life 2" as being a "classic" and not Half-Life (original) you know, the game that spawned an entire GENERATION of gaming, or even DOOM for fucks sake. He is an idiot, his opinion was refuted instantly.

[Flash2011]

Interesting point of view.

I keep saying that this game doesn't need to be like COD or anything like it. Valve has manage to avoid the COD play style and still make their games challenging yet fun with aiming.

You say

In the end, when this COD, pre-teen fueled, lust for immediate reward phase passes you will see games reverting back to the old-style framework that has bolstered so many of these "franchises." When you look deep inside all these AAA titles, they have NOTHING but good graphics. No story, no feeling, no depth, no skill required.

But I feel like instead of copying COD series, you're copying Half Life series or Doom series or Duke Nukem series. However, If you're goal for this game is to be like those series, you've succeeded. Though I feel that the main reason most people are attracted to this mod is for simple nostalgic reasons, like myself.

Let me ask you a question? Did you play the new Duke Nukem? Did you like it or dislike it? How long were you able to play it before you put the controller down?

[killermonkey]

I'll be honest, I didn't buy the new Duke Nukem because of complaints of the gameplay. Although, I never played the original Duke Nukem (honest to god) so this is not a nostalgia thing.

I only revert back to COD because that's the "shit" right now, if you catch my drift. Everyone wants to emulate COD... or name some other half-baked console game.

I have seen plenty of reviews recently that are getting fed up with the "regurgitation" of the genres. Mark my words, you will start to see cash cows like COD, GTA, Fallot X DLC #200 start to decline. It has reached the saturation point where gamers are like, wtf this is the same shit I bought 2 months ago.

Like most fads, they fall back on their roots, and that is classic gameplay action.

GoldenEye is far from perfect, building this mod has shown a lot of its weaknesses, but it has also shown a tremendous amount of strength and foresight into what was put into the game that no modern game has in it.

If you want an example of a classic game, revived, and for the most part kept untouched besides a new story and graphics I refer you to Donkey Kong Country Returns: http://wii.ign.com/objects/143/14354707.html

[Flash2011]

You're absolutely right about he COD series right now, it is shit right now and that saddens me.
But I believe what the largest problem of the series (outside of some fucked up marketing tactics) isn't how to play the game, but what the game offers and i'll explain.

When COD4 came out, people I went nuts. It was so much fun, even regular DM was fun because of the game played. As the series progressed though, the magic had begun to wear thin, why though? Because the devs aren't giving their players anything more to do with the mechanics.

Black Ops is seriously just a slightly fixed, non broken, less buggy version of ModerWarfare 2, wow... There are NO new gameplay modes (zombies doesn't count). It's still DM, TDM, CTF etc... They've catered to the new players by giving players really easy ways to get kills and streaks. They've also limited the amount of options players have to customize their own games. Lastly, instead of giving players more during patches, they just make maps and overprice them, woohoo...

Left4Dead uses an older style of firing but because of how they allow their players to use it is what makes it so much fun. Make it into a COD type game and you get something kind of boring and frustrating.

I dunno, I think i'm rambling now. Anyways, I'm just a player playing your game and I just wanted to put my 2 cents in because I felt that some of the gameplay was frustrating (mainly the aiming and firing spread).

p.s. Is their going to be a better/easier way to tell who is on your team?

[killermonkey]

They've catered to the new players by giving players really easy ways to get kills and streaks.

You hit the nail on the head. This is what separates the men from the boys, the classics from the stale. GE:S refuses to cater to this need, call us niche, but you need to EARN your kills with your skill.

p.s. Is their going to be a better/easier way to tell who is on your team?

Yes, serious design flaw in the mod ATM, will definitely be rectified in the next release.


Maybe you might have a future with our mod and your gameplay design ideas.... never know. Play some more, let us know what you think, and we'll be listening. Just don't try to change our core mechanics, cause we won't budge on that.

For the record, I think COD 4 is one of the best games ever made.

[Flash2011]

    They've catered to the new players by giving players really easy ways to get kills and streaks.


You hit the nail on the head. This is what separates the men from the boys, the classics from the stale. GE:S refuses to cater to this need, call us niche, but you need to EARN your kills with your skill.

I feel the same is true in your mod because people don't have to really do anything to get kills. They just hold down the fire button until one of you dies, this may be because of how much life each player has as it allows people to "tank" a lot of bullets. Counterstrike is a shooter that doesn't cater to new players, but it's also at time super difficult to get kills unless you've played for a long time.

[killermonkey]

Did you read my suggested material? http://wiki.goldeneyesource.net/index.php/V4.1_Release_Documentation#Gameplay_Fundamentals

It's not "tanking", in fact the swiftness of your kill is entirely dependent on how YOU do the killing. Feel free to pump bullets in my chest all day long, but two well timed shots to the head with my PP7 will take you down very fast.

[Flash2011]

I forgot to mention. COD series is only easy because of the dumb crap implemented, like the Tac knife and super shotties and Kill Streaks (which promote camping).

Most "hardcore players" prefer COD2 because of Rifles Only. I prefer shooting rifles and pistols (MW2 with shotgun and SMG secondaries...wtf), grenades were fine if used in moderation and not spammed.

Also BF series is boring to me cause I think a lot of the newer players just jump in tanks to get easy kills because using anything else is just too darn difficult (lol).

[Flash2011]

Did you read my suggested material? http://wiki.goldeneyesource.net/index.php/V4.1_Release_Documentation#Gameplay_Fundamentals

Myyyy mistake, i didn't notice it, sorry, i will read now.