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Graslu

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2016, 03:03:47 pm »

Pretty sure most of those players are new, I haven't seen any experienced player choose a pistol over a rifle when playing "seriously".

SMGs and rifles are way more efficent on killing people than pistols (I'm excluding pistols like the Golden Gun, Golden PP7, Silver PP7, Cougar Magnum and Moonraker Laser, which would fall on high tier weapons).
If you can keep tracking the opponent's head with a ZMG while you're unloading the full mag, they'll be dead way faster than them killing you with a PP7 or DD44 with headshot.

Also keep in mind this is a recreation of the N64 classic, we're not trying to compete against anything when it comes to gamepaly. We just changed the values on this version to be more rewarding to the experienced players; as Mangley explained earlier.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2016, 03:11:25 pm »

Pretty sure most of those players are new, I haven't seen any experienced player choose a pistol over a rifle when playing "seriously".

SMGs and rifles are way more efficent on killing people than pistols (I'm excluding pistols like the Golden Gun, Golden PP7, Silver PP7, Cougar Magnum and Moonraker Laser, which would fall on high tier weapons).
If you can keep tracking the opponent's head with a ZMG while you're unloading the full mag, they'll be dead way faster than them killing you with a PP7 or DD44 with headshot.

Also keep in mind this is a recreation of the N64 classic, we're not trying to compete against anything when it comes to gamepaly. We just changed the values on this version to be more rewarding to the experienced players; as Mangley explained earlier.

after using every gun in the game for at least one full round each, i can tell you that the only viable rifle/smg is the p90 and the phantom.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2016, 03:30:38 pm »

The ZMG is really good, specially if you combo it with other guns like the shotgun. D5k can be useful too, and I know I'd use it over the pistols.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2016, 05:30:35 pm »

I decided to run a custom local server and decrypted your weapon data, after playing around for a while, even with extremely high values its hard to make the weapons not be laser pointers.

maybe ill play with it some more later.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2016, 05:47:52 am »

What do you mean exactly with "its hard to make the weapons not be laser pointers"? As in they do no damage?

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2016, 06:05:50 am »

What do you mean exactly with "its hard to make the weapons not be laser pointers"? As in they do no damage?

no, i mean even if i make their spread from .006 to 100, the bullet grouping is only ~10% bigger, i haven't tried ridiculous numbers so far, but it seems the spread / min spread / max spread function do almost nothing, and the kickback is the only function that actually makes the bullets spread but that is met with extremely jerky screen movement that is unplesent when you put a large enough value to make the guns not laser pointers.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2016, 06:23:50 am »

Jumping is what destroys the spread most, other than that, guns are meant to be accurate if you tap, specially the pistols.
If you rapid fire a PP7 or DD44, the bullets go everywhere, same with the rifles. It's less noticeable with SMGs since their accuracy is not that good in the first place and are usually used in close range.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2016, 06:26:02 am »

Jumping is what destroys the spread most, other than that, guns are meant to be accurate if you tap, specially the pistols.
If you rapid fire a PP7 or DD44, the bullets go everywhere, same with the rifles. It's less noticeable with SMGs since their accuracy is not that good in the first place and are usually used in close range.

i'm talking about creating a custom spead profile on a custom server.

and how ever it was programmed it was programmed to be laser pointers with very little control.

im going to try stupid high numbers like 1 million to see if i can get the bullet to go more than 3 inches from center
no wonder having the rifles do expected level of damage was a poor option, the recoil is poorly implemented, it should have
been implemented so changing spread values actually make the bullets.... spread.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 06:29:54 am by Death »
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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2016, 06:45:07 am »

I don't know how the spread was coded in, but perhaps it was made differently than modifying those values on console, hence having almost no change in the spread if any.

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting to bump up damage on rifles and nerf their accuracy?
I still don't agree on that they do little damage, the speed for getting kills with them feels right and the spread you get when rapid firing from distances is punishing for doing so.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2016, 07:00:42 am »

I don't know how the spread was coded in, but perhaps it was made differently than modifying those values on console, hence having almost no change in the spread if any.

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting to bump up damage on rifles and nerf their accuracy?
I still don't agree on that they do little damage, the speed for getting kills with them feels right and the spread you get when rapid firing from distances is punishing for doing so.

the rifles should be pretty accurate the first few bullets, then get very inaccurate if you spray, and have a high penalty for running and shooting, and it should be very
high damage.

I'm not doing anything in console.. i decryped the weapon files and i'm editing them.

for instance:

Code: [Select]
WeaponData
{
"printname" "#GE_KF7Soviet"
"SpecialAttributesHelp" "#GE_Att_KF7"
"viewmodel" "models/weapons/kf7/v_kf7.mdl"
"playermodel" "models/weapons/kf7/w_kf7.mdl"
"bucket" "2"
"bucket_position" "0"
"clip_size" "30"
"default_clip" "30"

// Weight is used to determine BEST weapon to switch to!
"weight" "4"

"ITEM_FLAG_SELECTONEMPTY" "1"
"ITEM_FLAG_DOHITLOCATIONDMG" "1"

"BuiltRightHanded" "1"
"AllowFlipping" "1"

"primary_ammo" "rifle"

"Damage" "40"
"Damage_Cap" "80"
"rof" "0.117" //Rate of Fire
"c_rof" "0.117"

  "zoom_offset" "-45"

"acc_rof" "0.300" // Rate of Fire needed to maintain minimum spread
"acc_shot_cap" "9" // Number of shot intervals that must be hit to have max spread.
"aim_bonus" "1.5"  // Reduction of the cone of fire when aimed, in degrees.
"jump_penalty" "1.5" // Amount of degrees added to minimum spread when the player jumps.  A full degree is a lot for this.
"gauss" "8" // Higher values mean spread is close to a normal destribution favoring the center of the crosshair.
"gauss_penalty" "2" // Maximum penalties to the gauss value during sustained firing.


HitBoxData
{
"Head" "1.0"
"Chest" "0.5"
"Stomach" "0.5"
"LeftArm" "0.5"
"RightArm" "0.5"
"LeftLeg" "0.25"
"RightLeg" "0.25"
}
  Spread
  {
"x" "0.026383"
"y" "0.020988"
  "z" "0.0"
  }
  SpreadSighted
  {
"x" "0.006449" //"0.011170" Acc + 2
"y" "0.006449" //"0.011170" Acc + 2
  "z" "0.0"
  }
  // Spread angles for the cone of fire.  The minimum angles are used for the first shot fired.
  MinSpreadAngles
  {
  "x" "1.7500"
  "y" "1.7500"
                  "z" "0.0"
  }
  // The max angles are interpolated to during sustained fire.
  MaxSpreadAngles
  {
  "x" "5.3166"
  "y" "4.2298"
                  "z" "0.0"
  }
  Kickback
  {
"x_min" "-0.15"
"x_max" "0.3"
"y_min" "-0.15"
"y_max" "0.2"
"z_min" "0.0"
"z_max" "0.0"
  }



outside of some deleted code this is the current kf7

going wild with:

Code: [Select]
WeaponData
{
"printname" "#GE_KF7Soviet"
"SpecialAttributesHelp" "#GE_Att_KF7"
"viewmodel" "models/weapons/kf7/v_kf7.mdl"
"playermodel" "models/weapons/kf7/w_kf7.mdl"
"bucket" "2"
"bucket_position" "0"
"clip_size" "30"
"default_clip" "30"

// Weight is used to determine BEST weapon to switch to!
"weight" "4"

"ITEM_FLAG_SELECTONEMPTY" "1"
"ITEM_FLAG_DOHITLOCATIONDMG" "1"

"BuiltRightHanded" "1"
"AllowFlipping" "1"

"primary_ammo" "rifle"

"Damage" "72"
"Damage_Cap" "80"
"rof"         "0.117" //Rate of Fire
"c_rof" "0.117"

  "zoom_offset" "-45"

"acc_rof" "0.500" // Rate of Fire needed to maintain minimum spread
"acc_shot_cap" "9" // Number of shot intervals that must be hit to have max spread.
"aim_bonus"        "1.5"  // Reduction of the cone of fire when aimed, in degrees.
"jump_penalty" "1.5" // Amount of degrees added to minimum spread when the player jumps.  A full degree is a lot for this.
"gauss"        "0" // Higher values mean spread is close to a normal destribution favoring the center of the crosshair.
"gauss_penalty" "2" // Maximum penalties to the gauss value during sustained firing.


HitBoxData
{
"Head" "1.0"
"Chest" "0.5"
"Stomach" "0.5"
"LeftArm" "0.5"
"RightArm" "0.5"
"LeftLeg" "0.25"
"RightLeg" "0.25"
}
  Spread
  {
"x" "10.26383"
"y" "10.20988"
  "z" "0.0"
  }
  SpreadSighted
  {
"x" "10.06449" //"0.011170" Acc + 2
"y" "10.06449" //"0.011170" Acc + 2
  "z" "0.0"
  }
  // Spread angles for the cone of fire.  The minimum angles are used for the first shot fired.
  MinSpreadAngles
  {
  "x" "1.7500"
  "y" "1.7500"
                  "z" "0.0"
  }
  // The max angles are interpolated to during sustained fire.
  MaxSpreadAngles
  {
  "x" "100"
  "y" "100"
                  "z" "0.0"
  }
  Kickback
  {
"x_min" "-1"
"x_max" "100"
"y_min" "-1"
"y_max" "100"
"z_min" "0.0"
"z_max" "0.0"
  }



noticed the spread, the kick, the max spread are all extremely high values compared to normal, this second file results in no more than 10% worse
accuracy....

i haven't tried values in the millions yet, i guess thats next.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 07:05:21 am by Death »
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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2016, 08:22:37 am »

Ah, thought you were playing around console commands. Sorry, my bad. E-S is the one that modified all the accuracy stuff so I don't know how he did it.

But yeah, don't expect movement penalties to accuracy, ever. Jumping is the only accuracy penalty you'll get that's related to movement. Same with getting kills dealing only a headshot or two with rifles, it'd totally destroy what this is meant to be.
Most of times you'll kill faster and easier with rifles than with a pistol unless they don't move or aim 24/7.

Not to mention that if you shoot fast with the sniper rifle it's pretty hard to hit anything, same happens with most of the rifles at mid range.

When accuracy changes were in development, I requested it to be so the first bullets always went to the center if you tapped or aimed, and that's what we got in the end, increasing the spread way more than what it was before. (Which was completely random and most of times first bullets never went to the center of the crosshair)

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2016, 08:37:47 am »

Ah, thought you were playing around console commands. Sorry, my bad. E-S is the one that modified all the accuracy stuff so I don't know how he did it.

But yeah, don't expect movement penalties to accuracy, ever. Jumping is the only accuracy penalty you'll get that's related to movement. Same with getting kills dealing only a headshot or two with rifles, it'd totally destroy what this is meant to be.
Most of times you'll kill faster and easier with rifles than with a pistol unless they don't move or aim 24/7.

Not to mention that if you shoot fast with the sniper rifle it's pretty hard to hit anything, same happens with most of the rifles at mid range.

When accuracy changes were in development, I requested it to be so the first bullets always went to the center if you tapped or aimed, and that's what we got in the end, increasing the spread way more than what it was before. (Which was completely random and most of times first bullets never went to the center of the crosshair)

the current system stomps on people who pickup the bigger guns because they believe they will be better.

the pistols are extremely fast and accurate and deal kills in half the headshots. for someone who is able to aim and click like myself
it rendered the smg's and rifles utterly useless. the idea of it being area shooter style is 100% what it should be, however its current implementation is bad, the guns do less damage than weapons in the division.

that with what is ither very poor netcode / bad servers and you get 10+ headshots to kill with smgs, paintball guns are more effective at killing than the weapons in the game.

if i feel remotely up to it and figure out the current implementation i'm just going to make a custom weapon server.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2016, 08:43:57 am »

Kills are supposed to take long unless you do headshots. If you try to rapid fire 2 shots to someone in the head with a DD44 for example, it'll trigger invulnerability and you'll have to wait until the third shot to actually kill him.
With automatics, you need 3-4 headshots to kill, and the invulnerability rarely triggers because of the damage they deal, so you'll kill faster with them.

The servers defaults on 66 tick so I'd say they're pretty acceptable for a game like this. On this version most of the shots I hit that show up with blood actually register, unlike on past versions. Of course some times it'll just eat the bullet and even if they had no invulnerability or anything the server just didn't register it. But not much we can do in this matter.

If they're taking "10+" headshots to kill, they probably have armor, which technically doubles their health. So if it took 3-4 before, they'll take 6-7 if they have full health.

I'm having no problem at all using rifles / SMGs over pistols and still staying on top. I just keep the pistols as a backup (whenever I don't have a shotgun or CMag / Laser) if I run out of ammo and don't want to reload or just want to finish somebody off.

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2016, 09:04:26 am »

Kills are supposed to take long unless you do headshots. If you try to rapid fire 2 shots to someone in the head with a DD44 for example, it'll trigger invulnerability and you'll have to wait until the third shot to actually kill him.
With automatics, you need 3-4 headshots to kill, and the invulnerability rarely triggers because of the damage they deal, so you'll kill faster with them.

The servers defaults on 66 tick so I'd say they're pretty acceptable for a game like this. On this version most of the shots I hit that show up with blood actually register, unlike on past versions. Of course some times it'll just eat the bullet and even if they had no invulnerability or anything the server just didn't register it. But not much we can do in this matter.

If they're taking "10+" headshots to kill, they probably have armor, which technically doubles their health. So if it took 3-4 before, they'll take 6-7 if they have full health.

I'm having no problem at all using rifles / SMGs over pistols and still staying on top. I just keep the pistols as a backup (whenever I don't have a shotgun or CMag / Laser) if I run out of ammo and don't want to reload or just want to finish somebody off.

wait so if you shoot someone they become invulnerable!?

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Re: Gun damage
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2016, 09:41:16 am »

In past versions, yes. After every hit an invulnerability time would trigger on the opponent, meaning they'd take no damage at all for a brief period of time (maximum of 1.6 seconds if I remember correctly). This has been heavily tweaked for 5.0, I'll quote what Media 2 post said.

Quote
Better Invulnerability

The first of the mechanics we took a long hard look at was invulnerability. There were some positive effects it had on gameplay as a mechanic based off of the original game, but the implementation in past versions of the mod limited the amount of viable strategies in a firefight, took depth away from the game, and could make players not aware of it feel that the hit registration was poor and unresponsive.

For these reasons we have reworked the mechanic extensively. It is no longer the defining combat mechanic it was in in past versions of the game. The new implementation of invulnerability now only limits the damage that a given weapon can deal per 0.5 seconds capping out at its original damage values. This means weapon balance is mostly unchanged, however, automatics now reward careful aiming much more than before. Invulnerability still protects you in cases where multiple people target you at once which was it’s original intention.
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