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Author Topic: Please make invul optional  (Read 8760 times)

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Imtnt

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Please make invul optional
« on: December 17, 2013, 08:43:29 am »

Awesome mod, but the invul system makes for really annoying gun fights, not to mention only exacerbates Source's inherent hit detection issues.  I am not suggesting to remove it, merely suggesting to make it optional.  I understand this was in the origninal Golden eye (I remember it, invul wasn't fun for me then either) and that some people could get pissy at the mere suggestion that it could be not forced on everyone.

p.s. Please don't make this into some kind of emotional issue, just make it optional and then we can all coexist happily
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soupcan

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2013, 08:54:33 am »

I hope this doesn't happen. Invulnerability is part of what makes GoldenEye, GoldenEye.
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Imtnt

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2013, 08:58:37 am »

That is why I am asking to make it optional... Did you even read my post?
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soupcan

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2013, 10:07:28 am »

Did you even play the original? If you didn't, this mod isn't for you. I don't want GE:S becoming another generic run-and-gun FPS, even optionally.

We don't need GE:S changing to accommodate the Call of Duty generation of players.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 04:59:03 pm by soupcan »
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Jonathon [SSL]

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2013, 10:23:09 am »

For the sake of building an audience, I do think it should be made optional. Even most of the people who played GoldenEye aren't aware this system existed.
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Imtnt

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2013, 10:38:18 am »

For the record, I did play the original Golden Eye.  Just because a system was in that game does not necessarily make it good.  However, this isn't about that.  This is about making the Golden Eye experience more open.  I had a couple of friends that all got this mod at the same time.  We were incredibly excited about getting to re-experience Golden Eye, but when we got into this mod we all instantly felt how unplayable it was (hell, we all thought something was wrong with the game).  I am not saying this feature needs to be removed for everyone who want a completely accurate Golden Eye experience, I am saying that it needs to be optional for the sake of everyone else.

Also for the record, I did notice it back then and it was just as annoying.

P.S. Not that I am allowing this conversation to degrade to name-calling, but I am not a "Call of Duty gamer" and never will be.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 10:47:00 am by Imtnt »
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Emilia

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2013, 12:02:53 pm »

Are you guys playing over LAN or the internet? If so, where are you from and what server are you playing on?

The invuln system is unusual. I for one can say that a high ping can make it even more of a challenge. I am Australian and play on an American server. However, that being said, the invuln system can actually work in my favour.

The majority of our player base is American, but we have a large following of international players too. Most of the servers are based in America, so the international player group has to play on these servers because our player base is so small. If there was no invuln system, no international player would have a chance.

That being said, the invuln system is not in place just to help the international community. Just in my five year experience of playing the game, it has helped.

GoldenEye: Source is a recreation of the original game. It is going to keep the original elements. If we move too far from the original, we will turn into those horrible GoldenEye remakes that no one liked.

If you were to make invuln optional, how would you do it? Taking into consideration that this game has online multiplayer in mind, with a huge international following. How would you make the game fair so the community can still play together, regardless of where in the world they are?

We always like new opinions and thanks for downloading the game.

If I could give you anything to take away from this, is "know thy enemy". This invuln system is here to stay. The only way to "defeat" it is to know its in's and out's. This game is different. It has a learning curve. We have all been there.



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Imtnt

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2013, 12:23:20 pm »

I would not be mentioning this if it was not a problem.  A lot of the fights I have seen have boiled down to 20 second shoot-outs where both parties pump and absurd amount of lead into each-other.  Bottom line is, it isn't fun.  In fact, this is almost certainly the reason the game has such a small community.  Less dedicated people that myself will see it, download it for the nostalgia, and then quickly realize why game mechanics have changed so much.  I want this to be fun, that is why I am here.  Even if it did divide the community, most people who actually play this play on LAN, or some other coop system with bots.  Would it be so bad to let the people who already do that turn off the invul?  It certainly would not be difficult to setup and would make a lot of people happy.

Edit:  Forgot to discuss internationals.  I personally think for the 20 people who actually play on the official servers that if they believe that invul is better they have every right to play with it on.  I however also think that for the people who are just playing with friends in their local area that invul just becomes an annoyance.\

Edit #2: Dammit, forgot to discuss nostalgia.  Quoting from the official modDB page

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We are doing our best to bring in the opinions of the community to create a game that everyone is going to enjoy. But, we are not here to recreate the game exactly how it was in GE64.

Also, I doubt what made people hate the remakes was the fact that you could hit someone more than once a second.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:32:33 pm by Imtnt »
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soupcan

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2013, 12:43:17 pm »

I would not be mentioning this if it was not a problem.  A lot of the fights I have seen have boiled down to 20 second shoot-outs where both parties pump and absurd amount of lead into each-other.

If you play the game for a while, improve your aim and properly time your shots, this wouldn't be a problem. Invulnerability is part of what makes the game fun and different from the others. The problem is mainly the learning curve because of this.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 12:46:38 pm by soupcan »
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Jonathon [SSL]

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2013, 12:48:16 pm »

Imtnt, I'm with you on this one. I don't get why people are getting so defensive over this. The implementation of "Classic" vs "Modern" damage systems would allow us to attract new players as well as satisfy the hardcore audience. That's why it's implementation is in the works.
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soupcan

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2013, 01:01:56 pm »

Imtnt, I'm with you on this one. I don't get why people are getting so defensive over this. The implementation of "Classic" vs "Modern" damage systems would allow us to attract new players as well as satisfy the hardcore audience. That's why it's implementation is in the works.

Since when? Last time I've heard about it was:
Quote
BTW, I did not imply that classic mode would impart a change to any graphics or sounds. Merely client-side effects, such as those mentioned in my post, that do not effect gameplay (or at least effect it in a negative manner as to not impart an advantage).
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Imtnt

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2013, 01:08:13 pm »

Quote
If you play the game for a while, improve your aim and properly time your shots, this wouldn't be a problem. Invulnerability is part of what makes the game fun and different from the others. The problem is mainly the learning curve because of this.

I could go into detail about why that is a terrible and outdated concept, but instead I will reiterate what I have already said a couple of times.  I am asking that this be made optional.  You have every right to your opinion about how the game should play, I am not declaring some kind of an absolute.  I am just saying that there are a lot of people who disagree and would play this mod a lot more if this simple change were made.
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soupcan

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2013, 01:17:51 pm »

I could go into detail about why that is a terrible and outdated concept, but instead I will reiterate what I have already said a couple of times.

Pretty sure I already said why I'm against it. Sure, KM can introduce the change, but I'm sure all the main servers would continue to run classic mode.


Quote
I am asking that this be made optional.  You have every right to your opinion about how the game should play, I am not declaring some kind of an absolute.  I am just saying that there are a lot of people who disagree and would play this mod a lot more if this simple change were made.

It's not exactly a simple change. All the weapons are balanced against invulnerability, and some client effects like the screen flash would have to be changed/disabled to accommodate the lack of invulnerability.
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Imtnt

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 01:24:59 pm »

I'm fine with the 2 "official" servers continuing to use whatever mode they want.  I am personally asking for this so that my friends and I can play the mod in a way that we enjoy. 

To answer the question of balance, the game is already very imbalanced.  High damage, slow fire weapons have a monumental advantage over high RoF, low damage weapons.  And no, timing shots does not help as it takes away the inherent advantage of the aforementioned style of gun.

Once again, you can disagree with my reasons all you like, and I respect that.  I just want this to be an option.
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Entropy-Soldier

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Re: Please make invul optional
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 01:28:14 pm »

well, if you want a taste of what the game would be like without invulnerability, I've got just the thing!

team.gesHL2.com/ES/Bypass.zip



Now, being the author of that gamemode and someone who's played the mod for a very long time, i am adamant that the idea should not be taken any further.  As Emilia and Soupcan have pointed out, almost all elements of the mod were designed around the invulnerability mechanic; removing it outright would sour all of the fine tuning we've spent years on.

Making it a server variable would also be sub-optimal.  Players get confused enough when bypass gets loaded into rotation, and that's with many gameplay-related HUD elements informing players of the mode's ruleset.  I can't imagine player's grasping the idea any better if it was squired away into a single boolean value.  Of course, there would be possible ways of notifying players after they joined a server, but it's not so easy to explain even to an attentive audience, so any hope of concisely doing so for a distracted player is distant.  All that effort and confusion to provide an experience similar to what many games already do seems a bit silly to me.

GE:S is actually one of the few surviving sourcemods, rising above many that had traditional damage models.  I think that, at the very least, shows our damage model isn't completely crippling.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2013, 01:29:55 pm by Entropy-Soldier »
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