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Author Topic: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service  (Read 17792 times)

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VC

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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #30 on: June 19, 2011, 06:12:20 pm »

Glitch noted; it could be a bug that crashed the script, but then the game should've reverted to Deathmatch.  Level 15 is supposed to be Throwing Knives, so I don't see why you were already on slapper-tier at that point... oh wait...

there was no body armor
You aren't playing OHMSS.  Someone touched my code, and for that they shall burn eternal.

They probably suffered a head injury and woke up with delusions of grandeur, proceeding to meddle with things beyond their grasp as though they were myself or a similar deity.  Anyway, if it isn't my code, I ain't maintaining it.

If it crops up in v4.2 testing, I'll be able to get the internal details needed to crush it; but right now, I know that my code for weapon possession looks only at the player's frags/level value and the weapons list, so if you're able to pick up a weapon other than the level's weapon, then the callback isn't being called, and that means something deep broke and I need to see the error message in the server's console dump.



KISS: Adding another button to fumble with (and to make players remember) to proceed is bad.  You'll have players stuck on a weapon because you cannot communicate to them the concept of "press the scenario event-trigger button", which is even worse than having a few who haven't gained the skill necessary to succeed in first-person shooting games.  I did consider a time-delay system of some sort to deal with switching during combat, but between what features I have to work with, the fact that it is a very situational effect (maybe I want that shotgun), and it opening doors for more fringe-case bugs, y'all can just pay attention.  If the bar's about empty, play less aggressively so you tap a guy, switch guns, then go all Rambo on your next target.

Being killed when you are almost about to level is a jeopardy.  The whole point of this scenario is to be effective; hit the opponent where it hurts, and don't let yourself get killed.  Carrying progress changes the game to "W+M1 until someone wins."  I may as well remove dying, and give levels for being in the server, and add an achievement titled "YOU'RE A WINNER" that is achieved by turning the computer on without accidentally swallowing the computer's BIOS battery.


Agreed that Grenade is a better weapon, but it's traditionally slotted as penultimate, and because I wanted the player to have something fun and exciting after slogging through Klobb and Failing Knives.
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Ruone Delacroix

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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #31 on: June 19, 2011, 06:39:14 pm »

KISS: Adding another button to fumble with (and to make players remember) to proceed is bad.  You'll have players stuck on a weapon because you cannot communicate to them the concept of "press the scenario event-trigger button", which is even worse than having a few who haven't gained the skill necessary to succeed in first-person shooting games.

That would be the reason to have it be a level progress because of

A: !Voodoo Key
B: Respawn

It gives the player the choice between seeing how long he or she can go on using the current weapon, or force it to potentially level up sooner.
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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #32 on: June 19, 2011, 07:24:05 pm »

When you clear the level, you are done with that gun.  What you suggest is to make the game about gaming the game instead of completing the stated objective.  Getting killed in a dogfight during a level-up weapon switch is NOT A BAD THING.

It's often a good thing.  That's the only period when you have no progress penalty for getting killed (think of it as a reward for completing that weapon's objective), and by dying, the other guy isn't hitting you, and thus not progressing toward the GOAL.  If you kept spamming the old gun, you would be earning no further progress, and the other guy would be earning against you, and even if you kill him, you now have almost no HP left and a half-progressed bar to lose.
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Entropy-Soldier

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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2011, 05:05:07 am »

I agree with VC on this, you should level up right away as it lets players focus on the objective rather than running around trying to get as many kills as possible before dying.


However, having played this gamemode many times myself now, i still stand by my opinion that this is pretty much unplayable.  When it's played with armor, it becomes "camp the armor or lose".  When it's played without armor...nobody ever makes it past level 10.  The TG admins made some modifications to the weapon loadout and armor appearance to alleviate the issue, but it still doesn't change the simple fact that gungame is designed to cater to new players.

You can't take that, make a gamemode that new players can't even get past the third/fourth weapon on, and then say it's anything like gungame.

Really, i think you should just do away with the whole leveling up thing and just reward good accuracy.  Gungame, in concept, will always be unlikable to experienced players but you need to respect the demographic that does like it.  People like to just spam bullets and be rewarded with a lucky win.  To that end, just market your gamemode as a training tool and scrap the gungame mechanic.  because let's face it, no-one who wants to get good at the game is going to be playing gunlame anyway.
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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2011, 05:49:18 am »

VC, sometimes its not about the math or statistic odds, or who does what when gives me an advantage.

You have to look at gameplay as an experience, and frankly no one is going to go through this experience if it is NOT enjoyable, thus no one is going to "train" themselves to get better. The times I played this game mode it left me frustrated and longing for revision. That is not what you want when your audience is trying out your product.

Don't be surprised if there is a On His Majestrate's Secret Service released on KM's blog in a couple days.
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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2011, 06:11:01 am »

As Entropy-Soldier said, the TG admin had disabled the armor because they believe the mode works better without one. Personally, I don't care if armor is disabled or not, I still enjoy the gamemode. I managed to get to the throwing knife level (level 15, Kraid's Bunker) until the bug happened, even though armor was disabled, so I don't believe it's so hard to get past level 10. I've won the round many times, before the timer goes to zero, but the map does play a role there. In cradle I haven't got past the klobb so far. I enjoy the mode, but I'm also sure not all beginners do. Even though OHMSS is more challenging than GunGame, it's so challenging to beginners that it's easier for me to take a strong lead in OHMSS than it's in GunGame. So in a way OHMSS is actually easier to win.

To me there's nothing bad in weapon switch in the middle of a fire fight. Weapon switch at level up is so fundamental to the gamemode that it feels weird to call it a problem. It's a feature. You can't drive a car without having to pay for gas, lol.

Falko, I understand your sympathy for beginners. But I also think you're exaggerating the difficulty of this mode a little. I've completed the round many times. If I can do it, you can too, because you're better than me.
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Entropy-Soldier

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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2011, 06:40:33 am »

Most of the time i play this mode, the new players get stuck on the laser, the somewhat good players are a few levels higher, and the top players are stuck on the pp7/klobb.

Of course, your performance depends on the level of competition you have; i can easily win the match without anyone around my skill level present, but once someone like that shows up winning becomes impossible.  As most average players are around the same level of ability as each other, they're constantly keeping themselves in the lower levels.

Whenever this mode comes up, especially in more open maps like temple or egypt, server activity drops by 25-75% over the course of the match because frustrated players never get past the first few levels.  Sure, it's a challenge, but when actually managing to win the round after 20 minutes (or before everyone leaves) becomes an accomplishment to some of the most experienced players, you know that it's just not going to be enjoyable for everyone else.
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VC

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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2011, 11:50:11 am »

Quote from: Insightful Observer
"no one is going to "train" themselves to get better."
Bingo.  Everyone wants to watch themselves win games, today.  Maybe I'm an old fart, but I remember when the point of playing a game was getting good at it so you could beat the game.

Come on, guys, even Megaman 2, the easiest and most cherished and beloved of the entire series, on US-Easy mode, was impossible to beat if you entered the final boss chamber with less than 50% ammo on the only useful weapon.  If you screwed up by not refilling it (you had to use it a few bosses earlier) or wasting a few and dying, GAME OVER GO BACK TO STAGE SELECT.  (On the original JP difficulty, you had to have 100% and had only one chance at it since a miss means you run out early and cannot resupply.)

What happened to turn a tribe of vid kids into mewing kittens?  It's like games aren't about a challenge to overcome, but participation.
"I logged in and I'm running around the map, so I should get an even share of armor pickups and if I die I don't want to lose any progress because I got used to quicksaving every five seconds in HL2 and that guy who is really good should stop being good because he makes me be not-having-fun."

No, you can't win if you're not good enough to win.
No, you can't walk in a first timer and expect to perform as well as an experienced player, and especially not as well as a skilled and experienced player.
No, you will not get a trophy for showing up.


OHMSS is a unique scenario.  I designed it to play differently from the other scenarios, including Gun Game, because we don't need more of the same shit.  We already have DM, Instagib DM, DM + a golden gun, LMS DM, Team DM, DM with Tokens That Everyone Forgets About.  You might notice that my other scenarios are also markedly NOT DM and often ignore or even punish DM behaviors.  Fuck me for trying to expand the game, because apparently there are only a handful of people who are actually prepared to learn to play something that isn't DM with a gimmick attached.


Returning to the eternal whine, armor has very little to do with OHMSS, since you dying doesn't matter to your ability to win.  It only affects your damage multiplier, which is lost when you die, and all it does is slightly lower the qualification standard for your next level.  Is it so fucking obtuse to consider ignoring the guy by the armor and shooting other players to earn your levels?  The only reason to remove armor is because Participants still think armor matters, play in the same mindset that they play in when they play DM, and die like noobs against AC-10ers.


I do grant that OHMSS can drag a bit; that's what map-time is for, you can custom-config as you like.  Klobb is shit on Cradle; lots of things are shit on Cradle.  Runway too, it's just the nature of a huge fucking map that a piss-accuracy gun is going to be a bitch to work with.  Fortunately, I give you a knife, too.  Shank someone.  Spawn camp if you have to; it's only one or two frags and they will probably be starting with a better weapon than what you've got, so it's fair-enough.


Feel free to remove OHMSS from your server scenario cycles and do nothing but LTK, where anyone can get kills and you can bitch about spawns instead of about armor.  At least the spawning system truly has issues that are not simply a matter of people not thinking about how to succeed under the scenario's rules-set.


I've said my peace on this matter.  There is no sense in trying to appease an audience that wants not any unique or innovative experience, but rather a new plastic head on their FPS Pez dispenser that spits out a brick of self-esteem every once in a while out of a combination of luck, being on at a time when the better players aren't on, and perhaps an occasional dash of karmic pity.


I wash my hands of Participants, and hope that those who, like me, enjoyed the struggle to master a new experience heed the warning and lesson that I have.


.  It's a couple jerks who camp the armor playing an FPS and aren't afraid of "training" themselves to do better than other players.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 12:05:10 pm by VC »
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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2011, 12:04:00 pm »

You took my sentence WAY out of context, thanks.

You can continue to ignore the simple point that OHMSS needs simple CONVAR tweaks to be mildly enjoyable to the larger populace. It's cool that you enjoy Megaman 2 and the ridiculous nature of the game. It was a different world back then, not much competing for your attention besides... Megaman 2 (oh and duck hunt).

It's not worth debating because you don't care, that so much is obvious. Thankfully we have python because you can edit stuff to your hearts content. Don't get all butt hurt if someone disagrees with you and modifies your OPEN SOURCE code.

No one here is debating that any other game mode is more or less enjoyable, all game modes have their faults, particularly Gun Game and CTK.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2011, 12:06:40 pm by killermonkey »
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VC

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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2011, 12:31:49 pm »

I'm sorry if you didn't realize that you hit the nail on the head.

Indeed it is a different world, a topic I recently wrote an essay on.  However, your patronizing assumption about the breadth of my pastimes during the late 80's/early 90's is unfounded.  I sought excellence in many fields; unfortunately, too many to allow myself to truly excel in any particular one.  Such is life.

I cared about providing new experiences, but they aren't wanted.  They want to play TV, where they're the star of the show.  I've lead the horse to water, but am not concerned if it fails to drink.  I care about Goldeneye Source, and have come to another revelation.

Goldeneye Wii had it right.  GES is too unique, too Megaman-era, too competitive for Participants.  Were it nothing more than a model and skin pack over Modern Warfare or Call of Duty or whatever the kids are playing today, it would be marginally more-successful.



It is only open because I don't have the key to encrypt it.  I'm rather disturbed that my scenarios were released in plain-text, and held my tongue only for the sake of its usefulness as examples for those who would contribute their own scenarios.  I assume the rest of GES is to be OPEN SOURCE henceforth, too.
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Entropy-Soldier

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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2011, 02:36:20 pm »

What are you on about?

I'm not going to even bother responding to most of those posts because I don't need to.  You already know almost every statement is wrong or taken out of context.


Look, you have a good level of ability but your attitude is really bringing it down.  LALD is one of my favorite gamemodes, but this mode is absolutely atrocious.  It has nothing to do with it being unique, it has nothing to do with it taking skill; it has to do with the fact that it's slow moving, frustrating, and generally impossible to win without sitting on top of the armor the entire match.

You have talent, but learn to recognize that everyone can be wrong and respecting the ability of others isn't a bad thing.  We're trying to help you.


Of course, if you persist in defending the current state of this gamemode, I'll simply tell you the facts:

Every time it comes up in our servers, several people leave immediately.

Over the course of the match, server attendance drops anywhere from 25% to 75%.

It has a very low weight across nearly every server.

Almost everyone that plays it is constantly complaining and asking us to change the gamemode.


Now, if you want to tell me that your target audience is the small, small division of people who want an insurmountable challenge, or the ones who just love armor camping and don't want anyone else to have a chance of winning, then you've accomplished your goal.  Just keep in mind that with a good deal of revision, maybe this could rival your earlier works and appeal to everyone.
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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2011, 02:59:35 pm »

I personally don't see what the big deal is with the armor. Whether or not I (or who I was playing with) had it, it didn't seem to affect the balance that much.
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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2011, 03:00:19 pm »

The reason games were actually way harder 15 years ago is because they were also very very small.
And it was an easy way for the developpers to increase the "life expectancy".
We don't mean the mode to be simple, we want it to be a little different.
I know people are usually complaining in an inappropriate way while they shouldn't.
It's like the minecraft creator who is told by the gamers "you have to work on the game, we paid you to do so" when he wants to travel.
I don't think it's the case here at all...

You're talking about Megaman... it's not a FPS and it's not a multiplayer game.
And we are not talking about level design either.
The issues on cradle, runway, etc. remain the same and are not especially increased by OHMSS.
Armor included. I don't know why it was removed from the server (not the case on the WNx server though).

I'm also stunted to read that you think good players play LTK while it's clearly the less favourite mode for us and the favourite one for the new players.
WNx usually leave the server or go spec.^^

Anyway, I don't want it to look like a big deal but you seem a little too much judgemental.
I also consider myself a good player and I am always looking for something new and innovative... that's actually all I can love for the moment.
I guess we all have a videogame history and I too don't like how most of the games look like nowadays.
That being said, your right to say I'm or we are wrong... I personnaly don't ask you to act like I want, I just gave my opinion, do whatever you want with it.
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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2011, 09:01:45 am »

Oh, I didn't see your message Kiihhu^^
"I understand your sympathy for beginners. But I also think you're exaggerating the difficulty of this mode a little. I've completed the round many times."

Yeah, I did a 12-0 just at the moment, I was with a +100% bonus damage at the ZMG level after 3 minutes and without even camping the armor (I only took it maybe 2 times and on different places).
My opponents didn't do any points for a big while then, surprisingly, someone managed to get to the rocket launcher level, he spawned near me,
had not the armor, I was ready to one shot him then he just lagged like crazy, almost teleported to an other spot!
And!
killed!
me!.
Otherwise, I'm pretty sure I could have done it without dieing once (though I just left the game after that =D ).
So if you only got in that kind of game, I can understand why you would say I was exaggerating the difficulty.

Before that one, all the others where I couldn't complete a single game was because I played the mode with more than 10 players on the server (who came and left... who started with the golden gun/pp7, yay). Those were decent and/or good players.
When I can't win, I just cry... Nah, come on, I don't play to WIN but being stuck with the same gun for 5 minutes is frustrating and not fun at all.

I was here to see if anyone had replied but apparently not =/
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Re: VC's Laboratory 110424: On Her Majesty's Secret Service
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2011, 04:45:25 am »

Considering that this mod doesn't really have a standalone offline game play element, one might reason that it specifically caters to participation in online play.  After all, the multiplayer portion of this remake is the part that everyone is playing.

Keeping that in mind, I think it's important to remember your audience.  If you think of your audience as unwashed masses of ungrateful hogs that just want to earn achievements, then you might be a little burned-out and may benefit from a break, because the work that would be done wouldn't be done with passion.

When writing music, you obviously have to keep in mind your audience.  Just because someone writes a really cool piece of music doesn't necessarily mean that it would fit with a video game or movie.  It doesn't make either of those things bad, they just don't fit.

Relative to this mod and the audience that it employs, perhaps there could be some revisions made so that VC feels as though it has the bread-and-butter-wholesome challenge that he is looking for while it being a little more accessible and rewarding for players.

One of my professors used to say "people do not like being set up to fail."  And it's true.  From reading these posts, it seems as though you already need a certain level of proficiency in order to reap success from the game.  I don't know if it's the fact that people are lazy and want something for nothing, perhaps it may be the case that for new players, it may not feel like it's worth putting more time into in order to become proficient at it.

I'm not saying that there should be compromise in a way that panders to UT-style gameplay, but perhaps just broadening the focus of this gameplay element will help attract and retain players.  After all, that is your market, and if you're not doing it for others to enjoy it, and you're not really enjoying it yourself, what are you doing it for?
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