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Author Topic: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing  (Read 7889 times)

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Swimm

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Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« on: February 09, 2009, 11:46:41 am »

I want to start by congratulating you on the release of Beta 3.  Developing a mod from early sketches to (close to) final product is not an easy undertaking, and you deserve great praise for what you've done!  :)

Recently, the TF2 community I belong to decided to host a GE:S server after I posted about the mod on our forums.  However, reception to the mod was very mixed.  While we all appreciated the nostalgic feel of the mod, many of us quickly became fed up with the game's poor hit registration.

While simple lag is an unfortunate staple of online gaming, what we experienced went beyond what this could account for.  In general, it feels like the hitboxes for the players are simply too small.  The feeling that weapons aren't having enough effect is further aggravated by the false blood splatters that others on your forums have already reported.  In addition, the unusual clipping that goes on when two players touch each other makes meleeing extremely difficult, which is highly unpleasant when you are forced to spawn with only slappers or a knife.  Having played on a variety of servers with low pings, it is certainly not lag that is causing this inconsistent feel.

The other major complaint many had was that some weapons are very unbalanced.  The majority felt that the AR-33 and especially the Phantom felt too powerful, while the Klobb and melee weapons feel almost useless.  Our feeling was that while it is important to retain the feel of the source material, it is okay to change things that don't work so well.  My suggestion, to satisfy both camps in this debate, is to have two sets of weapon damage values, one based exactly on the original and one new, and let server owners choose which to use.

Some had a few other minor complaints.  One was that some of the more fun weapons (rocket launcher, etc.) and dual weapons were missing, but this is understandable since the game is in beta.  Another was that some maps do not play well with many players, but this is simply due to the expanded nature of the now-online game.  A complaint of my own was that the onscreen text, which once exactly resembled the original's text, was replaced by a generic font.  It's not the most important thing, but it takes away from the feel of the game.

While some were disappointed by the other night's offering, many of us feel that this mod has great potential.  As many of us know from the TF2 map creation that goes on in our community, feedback is absolutely essential to creating a great product.  That's why I'm sharing the issues we felt were problems with you, in the hope that an even better product will emerge.

I wish you the best of luck in developing this very promising mod!  :)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 11:52:32 am by Swimm »
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Konrad Beerbaum

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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2009, 12:03:17 pm »

Thanks for the feedback.  We'll keep tweaking the mod until we've got the best possible result. 

One thing about weapons though, they aren't supposed to be balanced.  The weapons are divided up into weapon sets, and the weapons are varied in power throughout the set.  The mapper than places weapon spawns with different power levels throughout the map in order to add a strategic element.  For example, the klobb is supposed to be useless, it is one of the biggest jokes in GE64.  A guy with a klobb should never really have a chance against an AR33 with good health, and so the mapper will take this into account and place the AR33 in harder to reach places. 

Some of this strategic element is lot because so many servers are using massive numbers of people and random weapons, but once things settle down and people figure out how the game works I think we'll see a big improvement. 

That said, we are always going to be tweaking it. 
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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2009, 12:22:06 pm »

Did you leave it on Random or did you select a weapon loadout?  The loadouts are meant to be either balanced (Automatics) or part of a theme (Silenced Weapons).  Random was intended first to showcase all the weapons at release and second for servers that want to keep people guessing about which weapons they will compete with; we didn't expect so many servers would leave it on random.

The worst pistol, DD44, can do 50% damage with each shot, I don't see how that's anything to scoff at.  You can kill two fully-armored players with one magazine.
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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 01:06:12 pm »

I have to comment on your hit boxes comment:

I loaded up a TF2 player the other week and realized how ridiculously HUGE the hitboxes are for them! The head hitbox is twice the size of the body hitbox!!!

I can understand how you get the *feeling* that hit reg is an issue. However, it is simply that we are not letting our mod become TOO EASY. You have to respect the skill factor involved in actually playing this game well. Whereas in TF2, much less individual skill is required, but the emphasis is more on teamplay.

Thanks for the comments, tell your guys to KEEP playing, I promise you 100% their attitudes will shift after a week of play.
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Jonathan [Spider]

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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 02:03:03 pm »

Swimm: thanks for your well thought out criticism this should be the standard by which criticism of the game should be measured haha.

the false blood splatter thing is something the team is thinking of a few fixes for by next big release we should have a solid solution.

the weapon balancing thing is something the team will still be tweaking quite a bit. but a gun like the Klobb is REALLY supposed to suck its basically long range slappers. when we get duals in the klobbs then arent quite so bad.

thanks again for the good feedback mate +1 for that
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Swimm

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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 02:17:39 pm »

@Konrad Beerbaum: I didn't really agree with that one, either, but I thought I'd pass it along.  I like how the weapons work right now; it reminds me a lot of the original.

@Viashino Cutthroat: Yeah, we've left our server on random.  It might be a limited random, since there hasn't been an all mines fight or anything like that.  Some missed the weapons like the rocket launcher, the grenade launcher, and the laser, but again, I understand they'll come eventually.

@killermonkey: Many of us don't mind so much the smaller targets, it just often feels like a lot of encounters are spray-and-prays because of how seemingly random the hit detection is.  It does take skill to aim some of them, but it often comes off as broken when you have to fire so many bullets at one person to take them down.

Unfortunately, we probably won't keep the server up for much longer.  While we do keep some mods up permanently, this one is on our weekly-rotating mod server right now, and unfortunately I don't think enough people would support keeping it up either. :(

That said, we will definitely revisit it in the future.  We had a lot of fun with it the other night and tonight.  I personally will keep playing on and off on other servers. :)

EDIT:
@Jonathan [Spider]:  Thanks for the compliment!  I'm glad you guys are appreciating the feedback, and I'm also glad to hear you're kicking a few solutions around!

I look forward to your future work! :)
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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 03:02:19 pm »

TF2's hitboxes are apparently horrible along with the rest of the Source engines.  This video will show you the real faults in them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/s4RXsDj8bkY

Our Developers are currently working their best on fixing this as much as they can.
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Meliadoul2k

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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 03:10:07 pm »

The other major complaint many had was that some weapons are very unbalanced.  The majority felt that the AR-33 and especially the Phantom felt too powerful, while the Klobb and melee weapons feel almost useless.  Our feeling was that while it is important to retain the feel of the source material, it is okay to change things that don't work so well.  My suggestion, to satisfy both camps in this debate, is to have two sets of weapon damage values, one based exactly on the original and one new, and let server owners choose which to use

I agree. The weapons in this game ARE imbalanced IMO. The Klobb was always a bad gun, but in this game a DD44 is better. I also agree with your suggestion about the classic and new damage sets.
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Sean [Baron]

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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 03:44:22 pm »

A DD44 is suppose to be better.
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Meliadoul2k

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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 03:48:54 pm »

A DD44 is suppose to be better.
Realistically, a handgun shouldn't be better than a SMG. Unless it's the Golden Gun.
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Sean [Baron]

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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 03:50:56 pm »

Realistically GoldenEye isn't realistic, nor is it intended or suppose to be. ;)

The game is meant to be played with weapon sets, such as pistols, automatics, power weapons, knives, explosives, etc. etc. that balance out the weapons for each particular set. The problem right now is that most servers are running with a random weapon set, which we never intended or thought server hosts would use on such a constant basis, but we are changing that.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2009, 03:54:27 pm by Sean [Baron] »
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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 05:05:41 pm »

Explosives are specifically limited to one type in a random set because they were all over the place.

"it just often feels like a lot of encounters are spray-and-prays because of how seemingly random the hit detection is."
You just solved your problem; stop spraying.  Aim and put one bullet where it belongs.  Spamming ruins your accuracy, and low accuracy means lots of limb strikes that aren't worth piss.
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Jonathan [Spider]

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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 06:39:45 pm »

Swimm: make sure to swing by when we get the next patch out which shouldn't be to long from now. im interested to hear your guys input on that. though i think your buddies might still be a little disappointed as it wont include the UBER cool guns of RL, GL and laser yet hehe.

make sure to keep an eye on us your the type of folks who end up as our core audience and play the game non stop eventually when we get the game completely nailed down hehe.

Realistically, a handgun shouldn't be better than a SMG. Unless it's the Golden Gun.

lol realism in goldeneye thats a good one.
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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 07:09:45 pm »

How about an option to select weapon sets at random? What i mean by this is that the weapons sets stay fixed but different sets are chosen at random at the end of every round / match. 

Also the server menu could benefit from being stramlined with a pop down menus for weapon sets, game type ...ect
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Re: Hit Registration & Weapon Balancing
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 09:35:22 pm »

Will be in next update actually :)
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