GoldenEye: Source Forums

Debriefing => Impressions & Feedback => Topic started by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 08:43:29 am

Title: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 08:43:29 am
Awesome mod, but the invul system makes for really annoying gun fights, not to mention only exacerbates Source's inherent hit detection issues.  I am not suggesting to remove it, merely suggesting to make it optional.  I understand this was in the origninal Golden eye (I remember it, invul wasn't fun for me then either) and that some people could get pissy at the mere suggestion that it could be not forced on everyone.

p.s. Please don't make this into some kind of emotional issue, just make it optional and then we can all coexist happily
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: soupcan on December 17, 2013, 08:54:33 am
I hope this doesn't happen. Invulnerability is part of what makes GoldenEye, GoldenEye.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 08:58:37 am
That is why I am asking to make it optional... Did you even read my post?
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: soupcan on December 17, 2013, 10:07:28 am
Did you even play the original? If you didn't, this mod isn't for you. I don't want GE:S becoming another generic run-and-gun FPS, even optionally.

We don't need GE:S changing to accommodate the Call of Duty generation of players.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Jonathon [SSL] on December 17, 2013, 10:23:09 am
For the sake of building an audience, I do think it should be made optional. Even most of the people who played GoldenEye aren't aware this system existed.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 10:38:18 am
For the record, I did play the original Golden Eye.  Just because a system was in that game does not necessarily make it good.  However, this isn't about that.  This is about making the Golden Eye experience more open.  I had a couple of friends that all got this mod at the same time.  We were incredibly excited about getting to re-experience Golden Eye, but when we got into this mod we all instantly felt how unplayable it was (hell, we all thought something was wrong with the game).  I am not saying this feature needs to be removed for everyone who want a completely accurate Golden Eye experience, I am saying that it needs to be optional for the sake of everyone else.

Also for the record, I did notice it back then and it was just as annoying.

P.S. Not that I am allowing this conversation to degrade to name-calling, but I am not a "Call of Duty gamer" and never will be.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Emilia on December 17, 2013, 12:02:53 pm
Are you guys playing over LAN or the internet? If so, where are you from and what server are you playing on?

The invuln system is unusual. I for one can say that a high ping can make it even more of a challenge. I am Australian and play on an American server. However, that being said, the invuln system can actually work in my favour.

The majority of our player base is American, but we have a large following of international players too. Most of the servers are based in America, so the international player group has to play on these servers because our player base is so small. If there was no invuln system, no international player would have a chance.

That being said, the invuln system is not in place just to help the international community. Just in my five year experience of playing the game, it has helped.

GoldenEye: Source is a recreation of the original game. It is going to keep the original elements. If we move too far from the original, we will turn into those horrible GoldenEye remakes that no one liked.

If you were to make invuln optional, how would you do it? Taking into consideration that this game has online multiplayer in mind, with a huge international following. How would you make the game fair so the community can still play together, regardless of where in the world they are?

We always like new opinions and thanks for downloading the game.

If I could give you anything to take away from this, is "know thy enemy". This invuln system is here to stay. The only way to "defeat" it is to know its in's and out's. This game is different. It has a learning curve. We have all been there.



Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 12:23:20 pm
I would not be mentioning this if it was not a problem.  A lot of the fights I have seen have boiled down to 20 second shoot-outs where both parties pump and absurd amount of lead into each-other.  Bottom line is, it isn't fun.  In fact, this is almost certainly the reason the game has such a small community.  Less dedicated people that myself will see it, download it for the nostalgia, and then quickly realize why game mechanics have changed so much.  I want this to be fun, that is why I am here.  Even if it did divide the community, most people who actually play this play on LAN, or some other coop system with bots.  Would it be so bad to let the people who already do that turn off the invul?  It certainly would not be difficult to setup and would make a lot of people happy.

Edit:  Forgot to discuss internationals.  I personally think for the 20 people who actually play on the official servers that if they believe that invul is better they have every right to play with it on.  I however also think that for the people who are just playing with friends in their local area that invul just becomes an annoyance.\

Edit #2: Dammit, forgot to discuss nostalgia.  Quoting from the official modDB page

Quote
We are doing our best to bring in the opinions of the community to create a game that everyone is going to enjoy. But, we are not here to recreate the game exactly how it was in GE64.

Also, I doubt what made people hate the remakes was the fact that you could hit someone more than once a second.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: soupcan on December 17, 2013, 12:43:17 pm
I would not be mentioning this if it was not a problem.  A lot of the fights I have seen have boiled down to 20 second shoot-outs where both parties pump and absurd amount of lead into each-other.

If you play the game for a while, improve your aim and properly time your shots, this wouldn't be a problem. Invulnerability is part of what makes the game fun and different from the others. The problem is mainly the learning curve because of this.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Jonathon [SSL] on December 17, 2013, 12:48:16 pm
Imtnt, I'm with you on this one. I don't get why people are getting so defensive over this. The implementation of "Classic" vs "Modern" damage systems would allow us to attract new players as well as satisfy the hardcore audience. That's why it's implementation is in the works.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: soupcan on December 17, 2013, 01:01:56 pm
Imtnt, I'm with you on this one. I don't get why people are getting so defensive over this. The implementation of "Classic" vs "Modern" damage systems would allow us to attract new players as well as satisfy the hardcore audience. That's why it's implementation is in the works.

Since when? Last time I've heard about it was:
Quote
BTW, I did not imply that classic mode would impart a change to any graphics or sounds. Merely client-side effects, such as those mentioned in my post, that do not effect gameplay (or at least effect it in a negative manner as to not impart an advantage).
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 01:08:13 pm
Quote
If you play the game for a while, improve your aim and properly time your shots, this wouldn't be a problem. Invulnerability is part of what makes the game fun and different from the others. The problem is mainly the learning curve because of this.

I could go into detail about why that is a terrible and outdated concept, but instead I will reiterate what I have already said a couple of times.  I am asking that this be made optional.  You have every right to your opinion about how the game should play, I am not declaring some kind of an absolute.  I am just saying that there are a lot of people who disagree and would play this mod a lot more if this simple change were made.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: soupcan on December 17, 2013, 01:17:51 pm
I could go into detail about why that is a terrible and outdated concept, but instead I will reiterate what I have already said a couple of times.

Pretty sure I already said why I'm against it. Sure, KM can introduce the change, but I'm sure all the main servers would continue to run classic mode.


Quote
I am asking that this be made optional.  You have every right to your opinion about how the game should play, I am not declaring some kind of an absolute.  I am just saying that there are a lot of people who disagree and would play this mod a lot more if this simple change were made.

It's not exactly a simple change. All the weapons are balanced against invulnerability, and some client effects like the screen flash would have to be changed/disabled to accommodate the lack of invulnerability.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 01:24:59 pm
I'm fine with the 2 "official" servers continuing to use whatever mode they want.  I am personally asking for this so that my friends and I can play the mod in a way that we enjoy. 

To answer the question of balance, the game is already very imbalanced.  High damage, slow fire weapons have a monumental advantage over high RoF, low damage weapons.  And no, timing shots does not help as it takes away the inherent advantage of the aforementioned style of gun.

Once again, you can disagree with my reasons all you like, and I respect that.  I just want this to be an option.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Entropy-Soldier on December 17, 2013, 01:28:14 pm
well, if you want a taste of what the game would be like without invulnerability, I've got just the thing!

team.gesHL2.com/ES/Bypass.zip (http://team.gesHL2.com/ES/Bypass.zip)


Now, being the author of that gamemode and someone who's played the mod for a very long time, i am adamant that the idea should not be taken any further.  As Emilia and Soupcan have pointed out, almost all elements of the mod were designed around the invulnerability mechanic; removing it outright would sour all of the fine tuning we've spent years on.

Making it a server variable would also be sub-optimal.  Players get confused enough when bypass gets loaded into rotation, and that's with many gameplay-related HUD elements informing players of the mode's ruleset.  I can't imagine player's grasping the idea any better if it was squired away into a single boolean value.  Of course, there would be possible ways of notifying players after they joined a server, but it's not so easy to explain even to an attentive audience, so any hope of concisely doing so for a distracted player is distant.  All that effort and confusion to provide an experience similar to what many games already do seems a bit silly to me.

GE:S is actually one of the few surviving sourcemods, rising above many that had traditional damage models.  I think that, at the very least, shows our damage model isn't completely crippling.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 01:38:24 pm
Dude, do you understand how confusing it is when you first meet the invuln based damage model? It's horrendous and is completely off putting.  I understand that you're concerned about balance and I am willing to help in any way I can to make it better.  This being implemented would hugely benefit the mod, without cutting off hardcore.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Entropy-Soldier on December 17, 2013, 01:52:04 pm
Well, give that gamemode a shot and see what you think of GE:S without invulnerability.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 02:18:32 pm
Just finished trying it out; So much better.  Obviously the guns need a little balancing but overall I enjoyed the experience a lot more.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Jonathon [SSL] on December 17, 2013, 02:21:29 pm
Since when? Last time I've heard about it was:

Oops, must've misread KM's post then :p
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: soupcan on December 17, 2013, 02:25:15 pm
Just finished trying it out; So much better.  Obviously the guns need a little balancing but overall I enjoyed the experience a lot more.

If you think it's better with Bypass, you're in the minority.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 02:34:30 pm
I didn't say it was perfect, I said it was better.  Just needs some balance.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Lord_Crow on December 17, 2013, 03:02:24 pm
Did you even play the original? If you didn't, this mod isn't for you. I don't want GE:S becoming another generic run-and-gun FPS, even optionally. For people who don't want Invulnerability, there's Bypass, which sucks, by the way.

We don't need GE:S changing to accommodate the Call of Duty generation of players.

Finally.
Blunt Honestly, Something I've been waiting to read.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 17, 2013, 04:34:16 pm
You know what, I'm done.  Unless this becomes an option, I see nothing here that I wouldn't just plug in my N64 for.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: namajnaG on December 17, 2013, 08:24:47 pm
Just adding a quick something here ; Some games has tried to put a "Classic" mode in their game, notably Red Orchestra 2. Problem is, no server ever runs it, Which is a shame, really. RO1 mechanics we're great, even though RO2 mechanics are also great, but let's get back on topic here.

Whilst your idea is not bad to accommodate the newer players to get used to the game, or simply let players such as yourself and your pals play this gameplay as a whole, I think it would take a lot of time to actually balance every weapon for it to have a decent experience, because even you said it, Bypass is unbalanced. Anybody can take out someone with an RCP90 within half a second and destroy the whole server. It feels like Alpha/Beta 1 all over again, So it's perfectly understandable that some of us don't want that and crave the GE64 mechanics. But then, I think it is also perfectly understandable that some players want that change too, because they liked GE64, but not as a whole, such as the invuln system being annoying to those players.

Most open-minded (pun intended) servers run "Bypass" as a game mode, and as E-S said, it confuses the hell out of everybody when it comes up the rotation, and most people bailout or vote a different game mode when it comes on because the game wasn't planned to work out this way in the first place.

And as SSL pointed out earlier, sure, bringing in a wider audience would be a good thing, I agree with that, but the thing is... Even if a "Modern" gameplay style was added as an option to the game, I hardly think any server would run it, because the actual playerbase is used to the current mechanics, and the only active servers that actually survives off are ran by those who've been playing on the same mechanics for years; those mechanics evolving over time and updates, of course.

As a whole, I'm not against the implantation of an optional modern gameplay style at all, but I'm concerned it might not work out as intended.


Also, hello Crow!
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: kraid on December 17, 2013, 10:05:56 pm
I guess you really should plug in the N64 again to refresh your memories about the Multiplayer of the original game.
You say that firefights can take up to 20 seconds and several magazines?
That's exactly how it was in the original, maybe even longer there because of the more difficult aiming.

Another demage system wouldn't work very well with our weapons.
If you look at modern shooters, most of them 'balance' their arsenal by only allowing rapid fire guns as your primary weapon. Something we cannot do for several reasons.

A classic mode, like you suggested, would only divide our community even more.
Even if such a system could bring in a few new players, i doubt they would be hardcore enough to stay.
Because if they were, they'd allready be playing this mod and got used to the system.

Without the invuln system, it would be impossible to win a firefight with a pistol against someone spamming with automatic guns, but this is the intention. Teaching bullet spammers that they cannot succeed that way.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Bashe on December 18, 2013, 01:24:47 am
Well I guess it's useless to chime in at this point since the guy already left (shocking!), but I think sticking with the current system is the best thing to do. For years, the mod has been balanced around it and while it can seem very annoying at times, it's true to the original and probably would be the best way to go about it. It has a learning curve surely, but practice makes perfect. Sadly, practicing is harder due to the fact that there's not as many players around anymore, and a good number of players who still play are veterans who know the game in and out and make it difficult for newer (and less patient) players to have a chance at getting better, and for those frustrated over this - believe me, I've been there.

I wasn't good with the invuln system at first either - I knew that there had to be some kind of system going on and I was aware of the invuln system from the original game, but I had trouble killing people because I was trying to play it like other FPS I had played over time. However, with practice and playing with people of varying skill levels, I managed to adapt to the system and get pretty good at the game overall, and I do appreciate the system now because it makes it more fair anyone using any weapon to get a kill, even the knife - my GOD even the knife.

An option wouldn't be the worst thing, since it already somewhat exists with Bypass and all, but Kraid has a good point - it would divide our already small, faltering community more because of the fact that, IMO, many of our vets and even relatively older newcomers would want to keep the invuln system due to its long-standing presence in the mod. I can't really complain about an option since it IS just an option, but I think dividing up the community more isn't the best idea.

TL;DR - the current system works best I think, and newcomers just need to practice to get it down. It's not as hard as it looks.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: StupidMarioBros1Fan[1138] on December 18, 2013, 03:16:30 am
Even though it's been a while since I've played Bypass, the only thing I'd ever notice is that the armor refilled your health and never added to the armor meter. I never noticed that the invulnerability system was turned off in that, so I'm not exactly sure if that means about me except I love going to the armor spawns to refill my health and armor to avoid dieing. lol I never found the system annoying in the original because all I ever played against was my dad which years ago I was okay, now I'm better than him due to me playing more often than him so it was just two on two between uneven players which both of us would go easy on the other who was worse to avoid hurting their feelings. xD Anyways because of this I've never been into a hardcore match on the original and never gave the invulnerability system much of a thought. Hell the only times I "hate" the system is when I hit someone who gains blood/paint and doesn't take the damage, but as someone else pointed out on another thread that wasn't because of the system but because of the game not sending the information that I hurt the player fast enough to me. And I've played CoD at my school and got into it as much as I could which wasn't that great because of the other students...so immature, always yelling at each other, disgusting name calling and conversations and just wasn't that enjoyable for me. Anyways I've played CoD and GE: Reloaded so I've got experience without the system and never noticed a difference...so is that a good thing? I think maybe if it was possible it should be an OPTION, NOT REMOVING for atleast LAN servers because as Imtnt said, he and his friends were newcomers. While the system works like it did in the original, I think it might not had been as noticeable as in here since well....this game supports like 8 times the amount of players, so I think newcomers notice more because they're shooting at more people in a shorter timespan compared to original. I always thought the system as sort of a balance so you couldn't just destroy a guy at full health with an AR33 or RCP-90, even as a kid (though maybe without realizing it or maybe because me and my dad didn't really choose Assault Rifles). I would like to know if it applied to soldiers in single player mode because I know it works on the player otherwise I'd be completely destroyed by soldiers like with the turrets on harder difficulties and was always grateful for it. The funny thing is I'd only think about that I was grateful for the system when I'm getting destroyed in a match in Source, but never think about how it was preventing me from killing someone, just assumed they had a lot of health or armor. lol
Anyways what I'm suggesting like Imtnt was, if it is possible, that the system could be OPTIONAL...I'm not exactly sure how to make it more obvious that I'm saying for it to be an OPTION because he said he wanted it as an OPTION for him and his friends and any newcomers that would enjoy it to play but then was backslashed with stuff about why the system should stay when he never asked for it to be removed completely. :P
I do not prepose that we split the audience but we do also need to look at newcomers so we don't keep the same audience size, and a lot of those newcomers are not hardcore GE64 fans that had tons of experience with the invulnerability system, some of them have more experience without it and if there's one thing I know about a good amount (not all) of CoD gamers, it's that they run away when something is completely different and don't try to adapt. Again a good amount, not saying that every CoD gamer does this, but a lot of them like having things the same, probably because a lot of the CoD games now are basically the same, though they have made changes with Ghosts that I've heard, I hope they begin to make changes to each game now.
When I got this game and got murdered on servers, I knew that I'd have to practice and play them over and over again to get better, though not everyone is like this, hell like only a couple of the CoD gamers at my school are because people get kicked left and right if they're doing good. Apparently to them if someone is beating them, they need to kick the person instead of just playing against them more often to get better, if they're camping or cheating or just using the grenade launcher add on (which is seriously OP and the RPG is like really weak O.o) then I understand, but when the person winning is playing fair then he shouldn't be kick. *facepalm*
ANYWAYS I'm not saying to let the invulnerability system go, but to add an option to turn it off on like LAN servers or maybe some sort of message that says that if you're annoyed at the invulnerability system, then to keep playing and try to get used to it instead of just rage quitting or something. I don't find it a problem, but as Imtnt has shown us, a good amount of newcomers do. :-\ God I ramble a lot, sure hope I didn't lose anybody in there. :-X
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Imtnt on December 18, 2013, 07:24:07 am
Just for the record, I didn't leave.  I care about this mod too much.  I am simply going to let the discussion continue without me.

P.S.  I thought we went over this already, but I AM NOT A "COD GAMER". I just like to hit people more than once a second. For instance, I was always a fan of Arma (Through its terrible control scheme) and Red Orchestra.  Two games that couldn't be more different from the "Run-n-Gun" standard of Cod.  Not to say that I don't enjoy run-n-gun style of games, just not CoD mostly because of its horrible community.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: StupidMarioBros1Fan[1138] on December 18, 2013, 07:35:14 am
I wasn't saying that you were, I was saying that some newcomers are.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: killermonkey on December 18, 2013, 10:14:06 am
You know what, I'm done.  Unless this becomes an option, I see nothing here that I wouldn't just plug in my N64 for.

This is the best compliment this mod has ever received! Thanks :-D

Listen, it boils down to this. If you don't like the game, don't play it. Just because **YOU** think something should be in it, doesn't mean it will happen. Stamping your feet about it doesn't help.

I see removing invuln like taking a turn-based strategy game and turning it into a Real-time strategy game. You can't just "flip that switch" and bam everything works.

You need to approach the game the way it was designed to be played.
The game does bend to the way **YOU** want to play.


If this were the case, then every game in the world would be exactly the same, catering to the majority and not the game and it's creators.



Here is the technical reason for invulnerability (partially stated in the release docs):

Invuln ensures damage is applied at a constant rate regardless of the gun you are using. What does that mean?

Instead of relying on the rate of fire of a weapon to deal maximum damage (spray and pray) you must rely on the accuracy and timing of your shots to deal maximum damage.

This concept is CORE to GoldenEye because it shifts focus away from the weapon and puts it squarely on your SKILL with that weapon. This is why a PP7 in skilled hands can take down an RCP-90 wielder.

This is also the reason why there are 8 weapon choices in each weapon set with varying degrees of damage and fire rates. Depending on the scenario, you have to choose the right one and wield it effectively. The sets are balanced off this fact and the invulnerability mechanic, believe it or not.

Without invulnerability, your skill requirement is reduced to general aiming and whether or not you have the better weapon in a firefight. It also encourages fighting through duck and cover and other cheesy mechanics.

In short, the invuln system provides a level of uniqueness when compared to other games because it enforces the skill of the player and not the relative superiority of their weaponry.
Title: Re: Please make invul optional
Post by: Emilia on December 18, 2013, 12:05:37 pm
Nice summary KM.

Imagine this. As soon as someone finds the most powerful weapon in the set, for example, the P90, they are going to tear everyone apart. Like someone said earlier, we don't have a primary and secondary weapon set up. So as soon as that person is dead, they go back to a low damage/firerate weapon. A very highly skilled person would need to take down a person with a spray and pray weapon.

With the radar turned on, that will be even more of a challenge. The person with the powerful weapon will be able to hunt you down before you even get the chance to find another weapon. I can see it being fun for five minutes, then people just leaving the server because they can't get a kill.

Let's say we make this an option. How do we make it fair?

No radar?
Having everyone use the same weapon? (That would work really well with the Casino Royale gamemode)

How would you implement it?