GoldenEye: Source Forums
Global Communications => Development Media => Topic started by: VC on July 22, 2011, 07:04:05 pm
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Expectations.
Armor.
Hit-registration.
Learning curves.
Momentum.
Seconds ago, a click to the Unread Posts page showed me someone asking where all the players have gone.
My first thought, they were never here to begin with. GES failed to attract them.
FIE! sayeth the Goldeneye Source die-hard. (You can spot him because he wears one of maybe three clan tags and spams the microphone while abusing a motion glitch in the engine code as he warps through a corner.) We had people! My clan has XX members and we play all day every day! [snip]
Orders of magnitude separate GES's population from other online games, but not from many other mods. Zombie Panic Source and Age of Chivalry are are Steamy freebies, and they suck shit for players-online. Insurgency never really went off, either. Looking at them, ZPS has glaring design flaws (even "zombies should always be a threat" was overlooked), AoC wanted to be medieval battles but didn't consider that those weren't fun (it should've gone more the Thief route than the LOL TIN CAN MACE SMASH route), and Insmod, despite its stellar production values, is just another Realismistic Army Game, bringing very little to the genre and suffering a lot of THIS SUCKS moments related to poor level design, such as "Defend the point means spawncamp for 10 minutes" or choke points that a team of pubbies can not possibly penetrate because pubbies are pubbies.
The numbers show we're doing it wrong, but not as wrong as other groups, whose exaltation above GES is more a matter of advertising and positioning than it is a matter of quality. So, what are we missing?
Well, what's the most obvious feature of Goldeneye 007 that made it popular. It wasn't exploding paperweights, damaged armor, running sideways, or the Klobb.
It was played by a group of people in the same room.
GES has failed to foster the fraternal camaraderie that made Goldeneye 007 work.
I know I've seen (and deliberately overlooked) threads talking about voting, so I may be redundant on this point, but we need voting on everything as a stock feature. Vote for map, vote for scenario, vote for a sudden-death way to end the round now/soon, vote for toggle options like Jumping Enabled, No Armor, Infinite Ammo, Akimbo, DK Mode, etc. We need to make the public server as (read: more) flexible and hospitable as the console was.
We also need to implement Handicap in an intelligent way. I already have in a few ways, it pops up in Live and Let Die after Baron gets a full arsenal, and in OHMSS when a player starts earning damage bonuses. Allow Handicap should be vote-able, controlled by the game itself to support players who don't "get it" yet, and indicate it clearly on the scorecard when a player is having his hand held, so it can be accommodated and adjusted-for in stat tracking.
As much as I agree that handicapping in an online game is undesirable, as long as it is vote-able it cannot ruin anything, and I would rather have one bad player getting +2 damage in each of many populated servers than to have almost no populated servers because no new players hang around. Additionally, a "noisy" handicap system will encourage players to get better so they will have those training wheels taken off. (I have some implementation details in-mind for this strategy, should it take root.)
We also, quite simply, need to attack the LAN market. We need to completely polish MP (yes, that means get rid of all the fucking Valve-related cheese and motion exploits, KM), properly support our scenarios (no more shoe-horned CTF bullshit, it needs its own versions of the maps), and ensure that, even if hit-reg and throwing knives are ass due to lag online, that in LAN mode, nothing fucks up. Rock fucking solid. Then, we need ambassadors who will infect every LAN party they find with a virulent strain of GES. We need guys in a room playing Goldeneye. Those are the ones who will be willing to get those same people playing over the internet to play, and start building the user-base that GES needs to become more than just another junk freebie mod.
Because, it ought to be. Right?
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I'm clapping right now, could not agree more, I believe I brought this up more than once on the forums, one idea I had was for some kind of shooting gallery like on Perfect Dark so new players could improve their skill, but now that bots are coming we have the perfect means to practice and improve, they could have difficulty settings like Agent, Secret Agent, 00 Agent & Perfect Agent, maybe even create some challenges like Perfect Dark had, we could even have some co-op challenges. Also maybe link the big "Required To Play" button to a complete install guiide for noobs including info on downloading and installing Steam, finding and purchasing a Source game, installing the SDK and finally installing Goldeneye Source, with the use of images as well it would make the task so much easier.
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Also maybe link the big "Required To Play" button to a complete install guiide for noobs including info on downloading and installing Steam, finding and purchasing a Source game, installing the SDK and finally installing Goldeneye Source, with the use of images as well it would make the task so much easier.
There's a Wiki for that, But unfortunately, Nobody (Or almost) uses it.
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@namajnaG There should be a video like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUEHfAtKT9o (as an instructional video i mean) but in gmod and shows the cast of Goldeneye Source how to install and play Goldeneye Source...with hilarious consequences
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So why is it that you don't play more often, VC?
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The funs-per-hour rate does not exceed that of TF2 or even L4D{1,2} on its good nights. I have stated my suggestions to help rectify this issue.
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TF2 'fun' boils down to exactly 2 things: finding some bs items even though you'd never use most of them, trying some unnecessary complicated stupid achievement which turns out to be broken and can only be achieved by doing it complety wrong (see "Out of the park" which does only trigger if you bat someone against a wall as opposed to said 25 meters) and playing with friends.
Then again the servers keep teleporting you every now and then in the mid of some firefight, people are very laggy most of the time (being melee-hit from across the map isn't that seldom) and Valve's own servers screw up catching replays and take the longest time to update to a newer version (since an update hits every 2 days patching in new hats and breaking stuff, that's just stupid).
L4D is only fun with friends. And so is GE: S most of the time, but that goes for most multiplayer shooters. Just as you said, it's about people playing together in the same room on splitscreen - or at least the same people over the internet.
It's about settings as well. But having everything voteable will give you no advantage - it gets annoying voting stuff and most annoying if people bind votes to your weaponselection. Having servers do e.g. deathmatch only would be better than voting all the time. I mean it's cool you can change the gameplay but if you look at the WNx servers there's a gameplay change every new map, so you can hop in, assuming your prefered mode is played then once you're connected it's mapchange and the one mode you're definetely aren't in the mood for. (like Cradle/LTK/Power Weapons)
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TF2 is retarded. I got team changed with 1 minute left in the round after I worked so hard to get the cart to the other side, all of a sudden I am now opposing the very actions I was doing..... it really really turned me off to the game.
(BTW this is not possible in GES since auto-team changes are based on connection time, favoring lower connection times, and in v4.1 you cannot be changed more than once)
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It all comes down to preference.
I like TF2 for its atmosphere; the voice commands, distinct characters, and design are a major selling point of the game. With the effort invested into these elements, TF2 becomes not just a game, but an experience!
...Which would be great except for the fact that the gameplay itself leaves a lot to be desired. It's not so much the game's fault, as a class based game as diverse as this one is prone to certain imbalances and quirks, but it definitely keeps me from taking the game seriously.
But back on topic;
While i agree voting needs to be implemented to a much higher degree than it is right now, you're taking it way too far. If I'm in a server with 16 people, i don't want to be pestered with a vote prompt every 20 seconds; this becomes even more of an issue if you want to include handicap voting.
Of course, preset handicaps would just be annoying more than anything else. With the way the game is structured any smaller handicap would be an immense advantage or completely negligible depending on the map and loadout. LALD does a good job with damage multipliers but I'd hardly call that an implementation of the handicap feature.
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TF2 is retarded. I got team changed with 1 minute left in the round after I worked so hard to get the cart to the other side, all of a sudden I am now opposing the very actions I was doing..... it really really turned me off to the game.
(BTW this is not possible in GES since auto-team changes are based on connection time, favoring lower connection times, and in v4.1 you cannot be changed more than once)
Good point as well. I just overlooked it because when I'm playing TF2, I don't really care for any outcome of a match. Frankly most people are just morons. (e.g. Heavy players that spin down their gun when you jump around the corner with your Scout and coming back every second killing them slowly) Either I'm just killing people trying for some achievement or playing with some friends for kills. It's annoying getting seperated all the time though.
Oh and there's always the map change just after connect. Like "why did I say I wanted to play a specfic map in the first place? Of course because I wanted to have servers listed that a) play a completely different map b) just changed it c) change in about 2 seconds into the round". -.-
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I didn't realise not being able to win OHMSS was a handicap feature.
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It's an implementation of handicap in the sense that it uses the same math at heart.
You are polluted by how votes have been handled in primative games and poorly-managed democratic republics. I believe it can be managed in a way that will not become obtrusive or distracting, by having players locally set a flag if they want to change something, and then the server will announce a vote only when those flags meet certain conditions, such as half of the players wanting to change scenario, or two-thirds requesting a map change. Handicap would, e.g., be only applied if the player wants it and the server allows it. If a player does bad enough that the server offers to enable Handicap, that would be a vote for; if the other players vote against it, it will not apply.
cD: If we had enough servers, there could be 24/7s for each scenario as well as rotators and then the problem wouldn't be one, but until a true base is established, unless you want LTK, you might be kinda fucked. Want to play DM? Too bad, we're going to LTK then L&LD then YOLT then CTK (lol) then TLD then crash and restart on LTK Cradle. Scenarios which are really meant to be spices are often served as main courses when each scenario has equal coverage. I would much prefer things like TLD and L&LD to be voted scenarios than universal cycle features because they require basic game talent to have any chance of success, while DM can support pubbies quite well.
KM: Of course TF2 does retarded things. It's a Valve product. They remind me of toddlers. Driven purely by impulse and id with no forethought whatsoever about the consequences of their actions. Similarly, they need to be spanked and put in the corner until they learn to behave.
Mang: ::)
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Driven purely by impulse and id with no forethought whatsoever about the consequences of their actions.
If they were driven by (http://v4.gurkoz.com/site/eh/file/graphic/enhancement/quake2/quake2_id.gif) we'd have something else.
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well if Goldeneye Source is losing popularity why not add new elements in it to make it fresh?
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well if Goldeneye Source is losing popularity why not add new elements in it to make it fresh?
They are obviously already doing that, You think the dev's are just sitting on their ass doing nothing at all?
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They are obviously already doing that, You think the dev's are just sitting on their ass doing nothing at all?
Ofcourse not
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The problem is that you're balancing the voting around someone who will take the time to learn and utilize the system...which is more or less counter intuitive to your stated goal. Heck, most people don't even vote with the sourcemod voting applet, and that thing comes up on its own and is very direct. With that in mind it's easy to see that if 2/3rds of the server population need to opt for a vote, you can bet this feature would almost never be seen.
And if you start a vote that offers to give one player a distinct advantage over everyone else, you can bet everyone but him will say no.
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I think bots will help a lot -- it means that even if all the servers are empty you can still play while waiting for real players to show up. Bots also have the potential of creating off-line practice, training courses/matches, and even rudimentary single-player.
Now about voting, I'm not so sure. I would like to see a lot more GE:S separating itself from Valve's system. I know it's close to impossible to do, but maybe allowing people to change settings without the console would help lan parties. Really capture the fun of sitting down with your friends, choosing some fun settings and going at it.
Also, maybe a dedicated Dev to advertising. Valve may not be able to help out, but gaming magazines, gaming websites and forums usually love showing some free publicity to the GE:S cause.
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I don't bother voting, I'm too busy playing, I let other players do that.
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I would like to see a lot more GE:S separating itself from Valve's system. I know it's close to impossible to do, but maybe allowing people to change settings without the console would help lan parties.
If only GE:S could be a stand alone game like Combat Arms, that would be awesome. As for menu's, I would like to see the option of selecting game type and weapons etc, without having to type words into a box, a nice pull down menu perhaps.
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We'd need something like a map and gamemode voting screen at the end of each match right before the server is going to change the map.
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The problem is that you're balancing the voting around someone who will take the time to learn and utilize the system...which is more or less counter intuitive to your stated goal. Heck, most people don't even vote with the sourcemod voting applet, and that thing comes up on its own and is very direct. With that in mind it's easy to see that if 2/3rds of the server population need to opt for a vote, you can bet this feature would almost never be seen.
Yeah, that's the thing. VC always comes up with interesting ideas, but they often if not always require people to read up and think - and that's where they fail. Like many people don't get LALD even with the integrated gameplay help. They go like "Why don't I get points and that guy I just shot respawns? And when I'm killed I can't spawn? BS! *ragequit*".
And if you start a vote that offers to give one player a distinct advantage over everyone else, you can bet everyone but him will say no.
That's why I already proposed - in another thread though - that handicapping should be the other way around. Players can choose to handicap themselves having -10 armor, -10 health or whatever. You could encourage this by giving more points to players playing with a handicap. So good player will go for the handicap (but on a level they feel comfortable with) while bad players won't feel like their hands are being held. Though I like VC's idea that the server offers handicaps to weaker players - and automatically disables the handicap once they're improving.
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Now about voting, I'm not so sure. I would like to see a lot more GE:S separating itself from Valve's system. I know it's close to impossible to do, but maybe allowing people to change settings without the console would help lan parties. Really capture the fun of sitting down with your friends, choosing some fun settings and going at it.
Great idea! (if sv_lan == 1 && ge_lanvote == 1 present lan options screen before starting the match (match time, round time, scenario, weaponset, etc.))
Listen, I'll be square with everyone, we plan on having a voting panel come up at the end of each match for the NEXT map. This would replace all SM plugins and be very interactive and in your face. Voting would be for Gameplay Scenario and Map.
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And weapon set i hope.
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And weapon set i hope.
Only if the weapon set is not randomized (ie random_loadout)
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I don't bother voting, I'm too busy playing, I let other players do that.
Ah, but if you aren't paying attention to what you are playing, then you are just participating. You're also assuming that your vote doesn't matter or is marginalized, which is a 20-randoms server thought, not a 4-friends server thought.
Players can choose to handicap themselves having -10 armor, -10 health or whatever.
That's no good. Be it automatic, if you nerf a good player, you move the dominant strategy to be to play as good as possible without tripping the penalty, and be it elective, no one will elect except for a few people who are the "no damage speed run" type of player. For most, it would just mean they get ganked by Klobb spam. However, fortifying a bad player does not affect the normal or good players much, since both reduced damage on the noob or boosting the damage they inflict is countered by their inherent badness of play, thus the handicap effect is felt only when they get a little better, making those boosted shots count or successfully evading attacks. Training wheels for neophytes = good; boat anchors for regulars = bad.
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I think we need to really classify what we're talking about: making GE:S online and offline play different.
LAN play will be more like sitting down with your friends and playing N64 -- choosing settings, maps, handicaps, etc. Online play will be more like other PC FPS with servers controlling most of the experience. Really having two branches of the experience is an interesting idea, one for LAN parties (and 4-person servers I would imagine) and one for online servers.
I was playing around with an idea for handicaps before, but I could never make it really fair. Maybe just allowing people to set up handicaps in LAN and 4-person servers would be best?
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What I'm talking about is making LAN our target audience and letting Online be an out-growth of that.
Just being an online DM mod brings nothing to the market and we cannot compete with established jump-in-have-fun-jump-out games. But, almost no games specifically target LANs as a mission. That's where I think we need to be. We need to be the go-to game when you have a bunch of people LANing and looking for something everyone can jump into. One thing that the Dev crew cannot do is be the ambassador who speaks up and says "hey, we all got Source on these computers, let's do Goldeneye," but we have lots of people who claim to want to spread the word on GES. I've tried, but online it always falls flat because once they get all the shit installed, I have almost nothing to offer them but an LTK server (oh this game is just one hit kills) or one of the elaborate scenarios with die-hards who make it feel like one-sided LTK to the newbie. Online-GES doesn't offer what the first-timer needs.
Automatic handicapping done right can ensure that gameplay is, and stays, balanced. Leaving it to the players to choose is just going to lead to confusion (who knows what +2 means? I do, if you know your maths you might, but most just know it's more than +1 and less than +3) and arbitrary effectiveness.
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What I'm talking about is making LAN our target audience and letting Online be an out-growth of that.
well, i wasn't sure at first, but this pretty much confirms that this whole topic was just VC trolling us.
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I actually dig the idea of a slightly more communal lan experience. I ignored the rest of his post.
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Maybe we do have hundreds of thousands of players right now, they're just all playing on LAN!
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That's the spirit!
The next step is to add a feature to...
...you know what? With that attitude that assumes I'm trolling and that belies that I cast pearls before swine here, I'm saving that idea for my own project.
</troll>
</orsrs?>
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I'm sorry if you're not...but i can no longer believe you're serious about any of this.
Honestly, you've done some good work in the past...can we have some more of that rather than whatever the heck you're trying to do here?
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I'm just thinking out loud, hence, reflection, rather than a more pro-active verb. Then, I put on my raincoat because people start flinging mud at the slightest suggestion of anything that they think they know how it will be and don't like when they don't at all and thus cannot properly predict.
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Your mind is like the dark side: corrupt, vial, and insidious.
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:3