GoldenEye: Source Forums
Debriefing => Impressions & Feedback => Topic started by: oliversk on February 07, 2010, 01:32:01 pm
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Hello everyone,
I downloaded 3.1 and tested it for a while, I noticed a few things you should make your top priority or people will not play the game.
Aiming with any weapons without using the AIM mode (shift) is 100% horrible. I was NOT be able to kill anyone without using the aim mode. Once I figured that out I was only shooting with that aim mode and quickly became the best player on the server.
The AIM mode makes it all a bit more tactical, but it's still a great disappointment that I cant hit anything at all without it.
So, please, the box model and weapon aiming should be your top priority. Almost all weapons have the same feeling, you might want to work on that as well. Not one of them is accurate enough to hit without AIM mode!
Consider this some constructive criticism. I really like your MOD and what you have already achieved is amazing, but personally I'm not gonna bother if you don't fix this. It's unplayable for me. Maybe my ping was a reason, but still I can play CSS with a ping of 130 and can aim better than in GE:S.
Update:
Also .. the AIM mode should NOT be shift. The AIM mode should be right-click by default.
Some weapons like the rifles and sniper weapons zoom in way too much making them almost useless. I was able to camp in one spot and be a sniper for a while (just for testing of course) but it didnt feel right, it's zooming in kinda too much and you cant really aim with it.
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All I have to say is LOL
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Trivia: Before I came along, weapons were MUCH less accurate.
CSS has trained you to aim only by concentrating on your little + thingie. Play for a while and you won't need it.
Also, if you treat GES like CSS, you will not succeed. Old crummy game techniques won't work in Goldeneye because GES combat is geared around accuracy AND patience.
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Hello everyone,
I downloaded 3.1 and tested it for a while, I noticed a few things you should make your top priority or people will not play the game.
Aiming with any weapons without using the AIM mode (shift) is 100% horrible. I was NOT be able to kill anyone without using the aim mode. Once I figured that out I was only shooting with that aim mode and quickly became the best player on the server.
The AIM mode makes it all a bit more tactical, but it's still a great disappointment that I cant hit anything at all without it.
So, please, the box model and weapon aiming should be your top priority. Almost all weapons have the same feeling, you might want to work on that as well. Not one of them is accurate enough to hit without AIM mode!
Consider this some constructive criticism. I really like your MOD and what you have already achieved is amazing, but personally I'm not gonna bother if you don't fix this. It's unplayable for me. Maybe my ping was a reason, but still I can play CSS with a ping of 130 and can aim better than in GE:S.
Update:
Also .. the AIM mode should NOT be shift. The AIM mode should be right-click by default.
Some weapons like the rifles and sniper weapons zoom in way too much making them almost useless. I was able to camp in one spot and be a sniper for a while (just for testing of course) but it didnt feel right, it's zooming in kinda too much and you cant really aim with it.
So first of all let me say... hello and welcome to the forums. Feel free to speak you mind and post you opinion - as I'm about to do.
The first weeks when Beta 3 was released already did prove you wrong - a lot of people played and a lot of people stillt do it today regardless of that Valve breaking all servers for 2 weeks thing.
Furthermore it's perfectly possible to shoot people without aim mode - you might want to get yourself some more experience playing licencse to kill mode.
Occasionally you'll notice, that the hitboxes are even more accurate than in most other source based games (even the ones by Valve itself), because they are customized to fit the model. (and not like someone shooting a bullet like 10 meters off your head and you're dying by a headshot)
The "lacking" of a crosshair under normal cicumstances is a consequence of 2 things:
1.) you don't have a crosshair in real live, when you're not aiming do you?
2.) this mod is based on the N64 game, which also hadn't a crosshair unless you aimed (obviously for reason 1)
The right mouse is reserved for secondary weapon functions (e.g. exploding remote mines in mid-air) and shift also gives you (as you are used to cs:s as you state) the slight hint that you won't be able to run, since you're concentrating and aiming.
I think different zoom levels are under construction and will perhaps even already be included in Beta 4 (I'm not part of the Dev team, so I'm not that well informed).
As for the weapons being "all the same" in behaviour, I'd recommend you to go ahead and spray some bullet patterns into a wall of your choice.
You'll thereby see differences in the distribution and frequency of the bullets.
(e.g. you can't tell me it doesn't matter whether you fire a Klobb or a PP7 or a RCP90)
Next step: get a friend and try different hitzones with different weapons on each other - you'll come to notice that there is also a difference in damage output of the weapons - which (together with the bullet distribution and bullet frequency) proves that each weapon is at least in some part unique.
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The aiming mode doesn't increase weapon accuracy, the aiming mode is to aid your accuracy - and it's a tradeoff since you can only move very slowly when using it.
Experienced players of GE:S can hit where they want to shoot without it because it's second-nature to them, they know quite approximately where bullets are going to go, and subconsciously correct their aim by using bullet tracers that their shots have. That isn't to say they play exclusively without it, they still use aim a lot too. Really it boils down to the weapon you're using and the situation you're in.
If you have the Cougar Magnum and your enemy is far away, aiming is necessary because you need that extra level of precision and it's pretty useless to approximate where your bullets are going to go at that range.
Similarly so, if you are in a close range pistol battle with someone, where both of you have a DD44, the person who is taking that little bit more time to aim for the head is the person who is going to come out on top.
But if it's an RCP90 you have and your enemy is at medium/close range then you don't need to aim, you just approximately aim for the head and based on your constant stream of bullet tracers adjust your aim.
My advice to you is don't be so cock-sure of yourself. GE:S gameplay has so far stood the test of time. Many people who first start playing aren't even aware that you can aim, when they find out they quickly start improving but they still pale to the very experienced players who can headshot without aiming or thinking about it, it's instinctive.
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"The aiming mode doesn't increase weapon accuracy"
Aiming DOES increase weapon accuracy in Goldeneye Source. Please do not spread misinformation.
Signed,
-- The Weaponsmith.
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Oh....
.... sooo like I said: aim, don't complain. :angel:
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Also .. the AIM mode should NOT be shift. The AIM mode should be right-click by default.
Haha, I felt the exact same way...And then I remembered that you can change keybindings through the options window in-game / on main screen. ;)
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I feel compelled to chime in and criticize every one of your misguided points since you might no be able to comprehend what others say.
I was NOT be able to kill anyone without using the aim mode. Once I figured that out I was only shooting with that aim mode and quickly became the best player on the server.
This nullifies your entire argument from the outset. You found, and agree with, the purpose of aim mode. And then you go and try to say that you should be able to do the same WITHOUT aim mode. Baseless and certainly NOT constructive.
Not one of them is accurate enough to hit without AIM mode!
You clearly didn't use all the weapons then. PP7, Golden Gun, and a few others have near perfect accuracy without aim mode.
but personally I'm not gonna bother if you don't fix this. It's unplayable for me.
Threatening to not play is definitly not going to get us to fix stuff, especially since this is a personal problem and not a mod problem.
Also .. the AIM mode should NOT be shift. The AIM mode should be right-click by default.
You can change your keyboard configuration in the options menu.... I know CSS holds your hand by setting the "optimal keyboard for killing terrorists" but seriously, gimme a break.
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You can change your keyboard configuration in the options menu.... I know CSS holds your hand by setting the "optimal keyboard for killing terrorists" but seriously, gimme a break.
Press F10 to autobuy AK47/Deagle...
If you make secondary fire aim, then you can't switch to the remote mine watch detonator properly or spam them midair nade-launcher style (though that technique has been semi-nullified with the escapable rolling explosions).
Plus, if you hold down shift to aim, it slows down your movement, and its just like walking in CSS! zomg!
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Welcome to the forums.
Basically I agree with the rest of the devs. This post wasnt constructive, but im not going to attack you, since you did make the effort to sign up which idiots dont do usually. They will just rq the game and go back to CSS, instead.
Here are some helpful tips ;
1. Google goldeneye and read up on the history of it, even just to understand what it is we are making
2. When you get in game, go to keyboard options and check every one, and change them to ones that suit you better than your first play.
3. Make a local game and in console window type "sv_cheats 1", then "impulse 101" , then cycle all the guns, and shoot them at a wall, to guage the difference in non-aim spread
4. enter a server, and focus on using the guns you felt comfortable with in your little run around shooting walls.
5. Aim for the head, in bursts with rifles and smg weapons ; IMPORTANT : Dont Spam!!
6. Play for a couple hours
7. Get up the next day, play for a couple hours
8. Keep playing you will soon realize its fun, and you have improved too.
CSS wasnt mastered in a day, and goldeneye source is a far more geared game as far as damage values and hit management. Learn it and you won't need to complain here :)
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If you played the original Goldeneye, it would be a smaller problem. Otherwise: A combination of practice ingame and comparing games with reality (toy guns work fine :P ).
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hahaha... yeah right...
well... is aimlesness was so bad than explain to why I can get headshot only killstreak with an zmg and AR33? It is because waepon behavoir is different.
stop whining about the fact that you are a newbie. ges ìs an epic.
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Each game takes a different skill learn to play before you decide there is a problem.
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Each game takes a different skill learn to play before you decide there is a problem.
Sadly most games today are all alike :-X
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Aiming with any weapons without using the AIM mode (shift) is 100% horrible. I was NOT be able to kill anyone without using the aim mode. Once I figured that out I was only shooting with that aim mode and quickly became the best player on the server.
The AIM mode makes it all a bit more tactical, but it's still a great disappointment that I cant hit anything at all without it.
WOW, are you serious buddy? Did you notice the tracers? That's how you aim. I don't find aiming to be difficult at all, I've been playing for quite a while now and I don't even notice that I don't have a crosshair, I just know exactly where to shoot for headshots, it's called PRACTICE. To say it's 100% horrible is just an ignorant statement, we don't want this game to be dumbed down so much that a dog could play it... we want a challenge. And if you ask me the lack of a crosshair is hardly a challenge at all... I also highly doubt you became the best player in the server once you started using the aiming crosshair...because most people would be picking you off easy if you're just standing still. Before you go and make such criticism you need to actually give the game a chance first and learn how to properly play it... THEN criticize it.
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As I said in my first post, the aiming is actually very very accurate. Seriously, if you absolutely NEED something to guide off of, go grab a dry erase or some sort of light marker, go create a local game, use the cheat and impulse codes and cycle through weps and shot at the wall. where ever most of the bullets end up, granted your shooting at the same spot, take that friggen marker and put a big marker dot on you computer monitor if your having that much trouble aiming.
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Thanks for all the answers. Actually, I was just provoking a bit to see what you would say.
I'm not one of those CS kiddies, I actually played and enjoyed Goldeneye and Perfect Dark on N64 so much, that I was glad to finally see a decent mod! If I had time, I would probably jump on board and create some maps and models, but for now I will only contribute with PR on one of my websites (http://windows7themes.net/golden-eye-source-beta-4-james-bond-will-return.html (http://windows7themes.net/golden-eye-source-beta-4-james-bond-will-return.html))
I will continue to play the MOD and I like it that it's a bit more challenging, but the things I mentioned in my first post might be important if you want the mod to become more popular. I certainly don't like any mainstream games, but as a mod-developer I would care about it considering that it is vital for the success of a MOD. I don't say you have to introduce a crosshair or significantly change the weapon aiming, but I would consider some small changes to make it easier for beginners..
I'm a good player so you dont have to make it easier for me :P but for all the others james bond wannabies ;)
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In other news: 'gamers' are asking themselves where to find teh deagle frum CS. Critics claim that without it, the mod will never get popular enough to reach critical pop mass. Paris Hilton has already jumped into the discussion saying that shaving of hairy crosses is sooo 2008 and that the lack of crosshairs is "not so hot (TM)"
Now back to you xXx1337_pr0nM4st4h.
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Thanks for all the answers. Actually, I was just provoking a bit to see what you would say.
I'm not one of those CS kiddies, I actually played and enjoyed Goldeneye and Perfect Dark on N64 so much, that I was glad to finally see a decent mod! If I had time, I would probably jump on board and create some maps and models, but for now I will only contribute with PR on one of my websites (http://windows7themes.net/golden-eye-source-beta-4-james-bond-will-return.html (http://windows7themes.net/golden-eye-source-beta-4-james-bond-will-return.html))
I will continue to play the MOD and I like it that it's a bit more challenging, but the things I mentioned in my first post might be important if you want the mod to become more popular. I certainly don't like any mainstream games, but as a mod-developer I would care about it considering that it is vital for the success of a MOD. I don't say you have to introduce a crosshair or significantly change the weapon aiming, but I would consider some small changes to make it easier for beginners..
I'm a good player so you dont have to make it easier for me :P but for all the others james bond wannabies ;)
Live and Let Diet? :P
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First off, thanks a lot for the promotion on your website even after we tore your post apart oliversk. However, I must comment on your end comment to your post....
I will continue to play the MOD and I like it that it's a bit more challenging, but the things I mentioned in my first post might be important if you want the mod to become more popular. I certainly don't like any mainstream games, but as a mod-developer I would care about it considering that it is vital for the success of a MOD. I don't say you have to introduce a crosshair or significantly change the weapon aiming, but I would consider some small changes to make it easier for beginners..
Much like why communism and socialism consistently fails in practice is because of one main reason. People want to be rewarded for their success. If you "level the playing field" for everyone to make it easier for beginners then there is no reward for when the player actually gains skill. The player will just get beat up by a beginner who spams their weapon or doesn't use cover effectively.
All of the gameplay elements in GoldenEye 64 exemplify a combination of skills that when brought together make you truely unstoppable. Was GE64 good to beginners? Ask my friends who played against me those sleepless nights back in the late nineties. The answer would be NO.
It's simple, really. If you suck, you strive to get better, strive to learn the game, then when you don't suck you bask in your glory (yet still can be defeated thanks to other players EARNING the skill). If a beginner does not want to learn and to grow in their skill I DO NOT WANT THEM PLAYING MY GAME. I want people who appreciate the subtleties, learn the mechanics, and really take the time to play. Anything less would make all my effort, and the effort of my team, a waste.
Therefore, you will NEVER see a leveling of the playing field, or a holding of a beginner's hand. They must do that for themselves; it is the nature of the beast. Any game that does level the playing field is destined to LONG TERM failure due to boredom and sometimes even anger. That is why GoldenEye 64 has truly passed the test of time.
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Much like why communism and socialism consistently fails in practice is because of one main reason. People want to be rewarded for their success.
While true, it's more like: people want to be more succesfull than others and people want to get more by doing more.
Any game that does level the playing field is destined to LONG TERM failure due to boredom and sometimes even anger. That is why GoldenEye 64 has truly passed the test of time.
Of all the SP games of today that I finnish I get a 'meh... okey done that' feeling. With GoldenEye007 (and a lot other games in the Good Old Days (TM) of gaming that were still, you know, a challange) I experience frustration to no end sometimes but I keep comming back because I want to beat it. And when I beated a level, like second bunker on 00 agent, I get the feeling of "Fffffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck yeah! YES YES YES YES YES I fscking DID IT! :D :D :D".
Now that is what makes games so much fun. That is also why leaderboards make MP game so much more worthwhile because you keep comming back so you can bee in the top 300, top 250, top 100, top 50, best player of your country, best player of the continent, best player on earth. It drives you to beat it.
Todays games are not realy about beating a game anymore. Todays games are all interactive B movie experiences that take time and not repeated effort to complete it and not realy beat anything...
Also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7VAhzPcZ-s
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There's also the issue of feedback. A game with a steep performance curve like Goldeneye means you really notice when you "get it". You know immediately when you stop spamming PP7 and missing everything and start two-shotting with DD44. Making things easier makes the curve more shallow, and makes it very difficult to perceive when/if you are improving, and allows you to slack invisibly.
Besides, someone has to provide the Nintendo-Hard for the 1337 p14x0r5 2 pwnz0r in.
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First off, Vince, that video, wow...I rolled around on the floor laughing and had to have a friend call paramedics I was laughing so hard. Sadly, the whole thing is True, dreaded or not, as well as an FPS fan I'm also an MMORPG fan, yes that means WoW. If there is any game that gives proof to that theory, it's deffinatley WoW. Original release, it was hard as Hades to get anything, now it's just kinda given to people once they level cap. Same thing with FPS games. I mean, sure I get pissed off as hell trying to kill someone on normal in this game, but ya know what? It's supposed to be that way. What kind of game would it be if they gave me a radar, auto-aim and guns that are one shot kills, actually now that I think about it, they have given that to us...in CoD:MW...which I found absolutely annoying at the thirty rounds per second flying at my head and watching people empty whole clips hitting everything around me but me, but get's that one lucky bullet to the chest that kills me.
GE:S when it comes to accuracy could actually REDUCE it's accuracy on some guns a little they're so perfect. That's my overall statement. I mean, you aim that sweet spot of your screen on someone's head, your gonna hit em in the head. There's little room for error, unless your using everyone's favorite gun...*cough*Klobb*cough*
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After playing various beta version the system is as good as it can using the source engine. Now if admins turn off cl_interp_ratio 2 and leave it at 1 I be happy but people need their handicaps one way or another.
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watch a beginner in CSS, or MW2 and see how friendly it is to the common noob.
your initial criticism were a bit silly, thats like complaining that the iron siting in mw2 sucks cause its not like CSS, and you cant kill anything unless you iron site.... kinda silly. in GES our game mechanic functions REALLY similarly to MW2 in that its easier to aim, it slows your movement, and you get a accurate cross hair.
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To be fair the tracers are not all that noticable in a bright coloured environment and i wouldnt say GES has a steep learining curve.
I jsut wish that server ops woudl allow us to use a higher rate than 30000 it gets pretty chokey in a full server of 16 players.
I would rather aim mode be on +attack2 the same with remote mine detonation but i have come to realise thats not going to happen.
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Hi there...
I totally agree with "oliversk" !!
Now i played for a couple of hours (your beta 4)...and i also think, the most important thing to bind players on GE:Source is, to improve the "aiming" and "hitboxes"!! Both should be the most important thing in future development!! Its more important than adding maps or models!
I also think, that the HP-Points have to be decreased a bit...
Shooting at an enemy for 10min until he goes down is more than disappointing!
Damn, it is just LUCK hitting the head...and this is not because of my low skill in this mod!
I dont know, wheater it is because of the "low" rates (55/55) of the running servers or of some other reason.
Playing on N64 was a bit of another gameplay-feeling than playing GE:S!!
And i mean the "gameplay" and "aiming/hitboxes" only have to be fixed...the atmosphere is great.
Sounds and music i great too...and the maps are looking damn better than maps in css or other mods!
The explosions are cracking a little bit like they were overpowered in loudness but this could be an issue of my soundcard...dont know.
And if you guys are so perfectionistic in bring Goldeneye64 to PC: "The KF7 Soviet had a 3-shot burst mode"! :D
Keep improving these gamplay issues and i think GE:S will be a great mod and will get a big player community!
Writing from Germany, sorry 4 my bad english:D i hope it's possible to understand what i just wrote :D:D
Greetings
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The only time I've ever really noticed hitbox problems is with the Golden Gun and well I'm gonna chalk that one to Source.
A GE player that has played for more then a week, wont need more then 10 shots to kill someone. Give any regular GE player a PP7/DD44 and almost a guarantee he'll beat a first time with a AR33... GE has a learning curve, and dumbing down the game to make a first time player and a 5 year player equal would ruin everything we strive for.
"You can take a n00b to water but you can't make a n00b drink..."
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And if you guys are so perfectionistic in bring Goldeneye64 to PC: "The KF7 Soviet had a 3-shot burst mode"! :D
This gave you away as someone who DOES NOT PAY ATTENTION or just doesn't want to pay attention because the KF7 already has three-round burst (when unsighted).
Thanks for the comments though.
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Hi there...
Hi n00b :)
Shooting at an enemy for 10min until he goes down is more than disappointing!
Your skills are grievable... There is an invulnerability time after each hit. So when you are spraying like fsck, which you are, you are probably repeatingly hitting someones foot, because you can't aim, untill he dies. The trick here is either stop playing GE:S, learning the gameplay as documented on the wiki or stop being such an idiotic whiner. The latter will come eventually when you l2play, though...
Damn, it is just LUCK hitting the head...and this is not because of my low skill in this mod!
Rofl. I am getting HS killstreaks all the time. "How?" You're asking? The awnser would be to stop using the goddamn Klobb and start looking at where the bullits go and looking for someone's head and then aim at it! I am not sure if it is required in this universe to shoot a bullit through someones head in order to make a headshot, but I am fairly sure that it is actually required...
I dont know, wheater it is because of the "low" rates (55/55) of the running servers or of some other reason.
It is you, sucking balls at video games! :-*
Playing on N64 was a bit of another gameplay-feeling than playing GE:S!!
Well that was because you had auto-aim in the single player and you could decide to play it against other total n00bs, like yourself....
And i mean the "gameplay" and "aiming/hitboxes" only have to be fixed...the atmosphere is great.
Have you rent a movie lately? Seriously; the computer graphics in the Matrix are stunning!!!1111 one one eleven
The explosions are cracking a little bit like they were overpowered in loudness but this could be an issue of my soundcard...dont know.
Get yourself a decent, external amplifier and a decent speaker set and put the volume of your operating system at 30%... oh and buy a fscking decent soundcard too...
Keep improving these gamplay issues and i think GE:S will be a great mod and will get a big player community!
I heared from the lead coder of this project that he can ban Steam ID's from playing the game. The first overal improvement to the GE:S experience, however unethical, would be removing you from ever joining a public server so people won't have to listen to your "Hacks!" comments in game.
Writing from Germany, sorry 4 my bad english:D i hope it's possible to understand what i just wrote :D:D
It's totally understable; you are a total n00b!
Greetings
kbye
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Lets tone it down on the insulting of new players.
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Now I have to split my negs between JessEH and V!ndows.
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Lets tone it down on the insulting of new players.
C'mon... I didn't use harsh words, and last time I checked n00b still meant new beginner.
While I totally agree with you that my post wasn't realy the height of social doing, you can't say with a straight face, in my face that you were not thinking the exact same thing.
Last night, for three hours straight, I have been subject to constant "Hacker!!", "Hax!" and "Stop hacking gay fag!". That was causing this post. While it was wrong to post what I just posted; I will not for a second think about removing it.
The question is: do we want to play the game with people that only play games because everybody else does it?
FFS I want to go back to the days where I played games with people who played games because they liked it ::)
PS: What it comes down to is: "I am not good at this game, so your game sucks and you have to change it, allthough I didn't pay for it, so I can win instead!!!!" Does that, in any, appeal to you? Does that, in any way, want to make you having these people play your game? I know I wouldn't...
He could have just gone ahead and think: "Why does everybody else make headshots and why am I the only one who's down at the bottom" The correct awnser is: You can't have all people end at number 1, because a game, played against others, is a competetive pasttime! Well hello?
PS2: @MICHA: the rules by which you are bound to play, apply to everybody else too. So if you don't like it than either imp[rove your skills or think about wether you actually like this game...
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Get yourself a decent, external amplifier and a decent speaker set and put the volume of your operating system at 30%... oh and buy a fscking decent soundcard too...
The guy has a point the explosions do crackle when multiple happen at once no matter your equipment.
P.S I have a good soundcard and Headphones.
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The guy has a poitn chill out the explosions do crackle when multiple happen at once no matter your equipment.
That's because the amplitude gets above +4 decibels and below -4 decibels. You can reduce the outgoing signal from your soundcard to +4DB and -4DB when lowering the volume.
When that's not enough your soundcards processor (or CPU if in software mode (which means suckage soundcard in both cases)) can't handle signals above and below the 4DB limit.
And external amplifier could then output the full analog signal to speakers with mids, highs and lows so the sound displays correctly.
So you are totally wrong... unless your speakers are just blown up...
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Oh great bullshitter, please enlighten me as to how you get distortion because of a signal going below -4dB.
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Oh great bullshitter, please enlighten me as to how you get distortion because of a signal going below -4dB.
Because the amplitude of the signal will never actually go beyond +4 and -4; it will just be cut off, which means a straight horizontal line and therefore not a soundwave, but just crackling distortion.
I made a quick and ugly graph to show you:
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/2719/dbstuff.png) (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/dbstuff.png/)
And please note that I have worked for a profesional light and sound company that does stage building and takes care of light and sound on television sets. I have worked with profesional light and audio equipment. I know what I am talking about here...
PS: In physics; each time the same sound gets duplicated, like 10 explosions of say 100db, the result is +3db. So:
1 explosions = 100db
2 explosions = 103db
3 explosions = 106db
And so forth and so forth...
Just lower the OS sound mixer signal and put the volume of your speakers higher and then the crackling will magically dissapear ;)
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interesting, what about windows XP ? lower down wave / master volume or both ? keep game volume at 100% ?
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Thank you for the lol, I needed that.
The 2x = +3 is correct, but the decibel is an expression of an exponent, so a negative dB value has NOTHING to do with the sign of the value. You must have been working with dBW figures, which is entirely different.
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interesting, what about windows XP ? lower down wave / master volume or both ? keep game volume at 100% ?
The problem occurs when the total mix sound (which is why you have a sound mixer) is passed onto you soundcard and made analog, so it doesn't matter what OS you are using, since inside of XP for example everything is digital. It also doesn't matter if you lower the master volume or just the game volume.
My advice would be lowering you master volume because then you lower all volume and when you up the volume of your speakers than you up the total volume of all sounds ;)
Also (and this is interesting if you want to be able to crank up the volume to as high as you want and not want to speakers to ever blow up); there should be a balance of 0db at all times. What does that mean?
You can devide sound into three catagories:
-high (treble)
-mid
-low (bass)
4db is considdered neutral. This is called 0db, because it is neutral.
When you up the low (bass) +1 than the total will be 1db (above 4db, so 4+1=5db. 5db > 4db limit and thus distortion) and so you'll need to lower the mid or the high (treble) with -1 to have 4db and thus 0db total.
You see this with pop music; in order to make the music louder, producers up the treble and lower the bass. MP3's are all bassy and thus the treble is reduced. Commercials all sound louder than the tv show you are watching, while at the same db, because they up the treble and mid and reduce the bass a lot.
You, however, need a mixer for this if your speakers combine the mid, highs and lows. But if you have an external amplifier that has a circuitry that devides the sound into 3 signals: mid, high and low (this is usualy inside of your speakers) and you have speaker boxes that each have 3 speakers inside of them (these are the mid, highs and lows!) then distortion will never occur and you will not be able to blow up your speakers! (unless ofcourse you put the volume soooooo hard that you speakers physically blow themselves out of you speakerbox xD)
So why are there 150 dollar sound cards then? That is not because they produce better sound quality (nope...) but because they can handle an extreme amount of channels (fatal1ty sound cards come to mind) and are solely for studio mixing and serround gaming.
So the rule of thumb: keep you OS master volume low, buy 3 speakers holding speakerboxes and a decent external amplifier (but these are usually build into your speakers) and you will never blow up your speakers and you can crank the latest heavy metal Slipknot or Hardstyle out of your speakers at max volume and +4 bass and +4 treble (but only if you set the bass and treble on your external amplifier) and you will never hear distortion and you will never blow up your speakers.
However... some n00bish recordings are mastered with terrible distortion (above 0db neutral) and these recordings will always sound like shit, but it is not you speakers that are blowing up. I get this a lot with YouTube uploaded hardstyle recordings <_<'
;)
Thank you for the lol, I needed that.
The 2x = +3 is correct, but the decibel is an expression of an exponent, so a negative dB value has NOTHING to do with the sign of the value. You must have been working with dBW figures, which is entirely different.
I though that you were reffering to the analog output signal... But nice trolling -_-'
PS: The decibel is a measure of sound intensity, with the function of power ratio between two sounds.
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This is called 0db, because it is neutral.
Actually, 0dB = 1. So if we are talking scale factors that means NO SCALING.
-4dB = sqrt_20( 10^(-4) ) (assuming this is 20*log_10 dB conversion).
Regardless, that is equal to 0.6309 which is CLOSE TO ZERO. Thus, it is impossible that this can cause distortion, which is related to LOUD sounds...
The problem with talking in dB is that every application has their own definitions and no one discloses the scale factors or their meanings. This is especially troublesome in antenna theory, but has nothing to do with this discussion. Basically, talking in dB is convenient when you are talking in terms of power at a given frequency because it tends to give a nice LINEAR plot for the engineer to interpret. However, using it in sound is just an audiophiles way of throwing his speaker dick around, it really means absolutely nothing special. It's just a conversion between absolute magnitude (in linear scale) to a logarithmic scale.
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Actually, 0dB = 1. So if we are talking scale factors that means NO SCALING.
-4dB = sqrt_20( 10^(-4) ) (assuming this is 20*log_10 dB conversion).
Regardless, that is equal to 0.6309 which is CLOSE TO ZERO. Thus, it is impossible that this can cause distortion, which is related to LOUD sounds...
The problem with talking in dB is that every application has their own definitions and no one discloses the scale factors or their meanings. This is especially troublesome in antenna theory, but has nothing to do with this discussion. Basically, talking in dB is convenient when you are talking in terms of power at a given frequency because it tends to give a nice LINEAR plot for the engineer to interpret. However, using it in sound is just an audiophiles way of throwing his speaker dick around, it really means absolutely nothing special. It's just a conversion between absolute magnitude (in linear scale) to a logarithmic scale.
Please, for example, call Pioneer and ask if you can design their mixers instead.
Also, you should never become a Dj because you would blow up sound systems in every European club/disco because Pioneer has a de facto monopoly there.
This has nothing to do with Audiophilism. Audiophiles are idiots that use golden cables for digital sound signals...
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The problem is the sound files not the equipment its being played on, no matter the volume it always sounds distorrted slightly. Play them in a media player using headphones.
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That's three. If we can get an Ernie Hudson, we can cross the streams and send V!ncent back to his hellish home dimension.
Fuck it, let's just get Ernie Hudson. I've got $20 in my wallet, if you two do too, we'll be his best-paying gig since Snoop Dogg's Hood of Horror.
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The problem is the sound files not the equipment its being played on, no matter the volume it always sounds distorrted slightly. Play them in a media player using headphones.
The problem is not distortion, actually... I have seen recordings of beta 4 on YouTube with rocket launcher mayhem and before the explosions it sounded like it should, whilst after it sounded like *KGGGGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRPGFSGSFEF*.
That's what I was getting at.
I also think we are kinda like talking about a lot of different things. I can PM anyone that wants to hear my arguments as to why you shouldn't mix low and high frequency sounds in a sense that the total offset of the amount of db, in comparison, offsets more than 0db (+1 bass, then -1 treble).
The problem occurs that in a game, there is no director that says: player 1 comes around the corner and player 2 shoots his AuG.
So you get a lot of high frequency *screeeeeeeee!* sounds of launching rockets and a lot of low frequency *BOOOOOOOOOOM* sounds all mixed up. This is what causes the equipment to become responsible for the crackling.
But whatever... by popular believe I am a audiophile that sucks at this, so don't mind me...
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We are working on the explosion sound effect. Although I actually agree with you on that point V!NCENT, the combination of pretty much an all-frequency sound causes most speakers to crumble to it's knees. Especially since the sensitivity of most computer speakers is so low that it can't handle the granularity of the sounds.
BTW, all frequency noise is is exactly analogous to White Noise (also known as SNOW on a TV) and we all know how that sounds :)
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We are working on the explosion sound effect. Although I actually agree with you on that point V!NCENT, the combination of pretty much an all-frequency sound causes most speakers to crumble to it's knees. Especially since the sensitivity of most computer speakers is so low that it can't handle the granularity of the sounds.
I would personally like it if you were just have a switch in the options menu to toggle between "laptop speakers/earbubs" and "True sound".
I can imagine that a single or two speakers can cause problems. I don't have a problem with my current setup, which is far from audiophile...
I had a PCI soundcard in my previous PC, but when I upgraded my new motherboard didn't have a PCI slot so I had to use the onboard sound processer and it kicks ass, because on low volume it can output sound correctly.
My external amplifier is an old 5.2 DVD/CD/Radio set. The life of the lens has a few operating hours and is seen as a disposable part, just like a battery that you can't recharge, so I got this 'defect' set for free (get yourself a 'defect' one at eBay for 20 dollars or so). I thrown away the satalite speakers. This external amplifier has the option of setting the bass and treble from -4 to +4 each. It has circuitry so that I only hear the low frequencies from the sub speaker and only the mid from the mid and the high from the 'treble' speaker. I now have two original speaker boxes that each have a 'sub' for low frequencies and two 'satalite' speakers for the mid and high frequencies.
The cable to connect my onboard soundcard is a standard 5 dollar copper minijack to tulip (those red and white analog plugs, don't know what it's called in English). This is far from expensive and audiophile, eh? :)
I can rock the Cradle with rocket launchers with 10 players and play my own music. The music that I play is Hardstyle which is characterized by its extremely low frequency bass. Here is an example of what I blast through my speakers and still hear crystal clear sound: http://www.youtube.com/v/OYJGrckuNU4
I never... and then I mean never heard the sound crackle. Not even on +4 bass and +4 treble which I have on at all times.
What is audiophile? My dad has a last generation 2000 dollar costing Denon. The cables vacum. The sound is absolutely horrible, because I can literaly hear the mid frequency sounds comming from the enormous sub. And why? Because it's not a good product. Now that is what I call audiophilism! And Denon is world famous for its audiophilistic fanbase that redicuslously claim to hear differences in sound quality. Well wake up; there is no such thing as sound quality. There is only incorrect sound and correct sound production. Period. You have capable and uncapable sound configurations. Get yours on eBay and Radioshack for a total of 30 dollars!
BTW, all frequency noise is is exactly analogous to White Noise (also known as SNOW on a TV) and we all know how that sounds :)
Background radiation? :angel: I love the sound of illumination! ;D (Hey that rhymes :D)
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I didn't say you were an audiophile. I was saying audiophiles often throw around dB's like they know what they are talking about when they really don't.
Completely agree though, most companies *cough*BOSE*cough* package extremely substandard components into a well-engineered case and pass it off as excellence. When in reality it is just a trick on the ear and not the speaker itself. You are paying for molded plastic and not a hi-fi speaker.
And yes, a speaker makes a HUGE difference. I am not claiming audiophilism, but if you sit on my couch and listen to my hand built system (stereo front and 400 watt bass in bandpass box) you would agree with me :-) Ask fourtecks or lodle how they enjoyed my system, hehe.
Btw. those red/black clips are called banana clips in english.
EDIT: (PICS!)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/killermonkey01/Personal/th_IMG_3359.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v687/killermonkey01/Personal/?action=view¤t=IMG_3359.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/killermonkey01/Personal/th_IMG_3358.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v687/killermonkey01/Personal/?action=view¤t=IMG_3358.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/killermonkey01/Personal/th_IMG_3371.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v687/killermonkey01/Personal/?action=view¤t=IMG_3371.jpg)
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Friends don't let friends buy Bose.
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Your system isn't that special when you have no power :p
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You must have had fun winding the coils.
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I completely agree about Bose today. But back in the day that everyone had large speakers, Bose was known for being able to engineer radio towers with very tiny speakerboxes while maintaining good sound quality.
Today you can still see this with their 3 in 1 serroun system that has only two extremely tiny speakerboxes.
But that is all there is to Bose...
Too bad that you can't hear my setup because it sounds awesome xD
I'll make pictures of it and post them when I get back from work ;)
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Here's my soundsystem:
(http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/3923/foto0093mu.jpg) (http://img63.imageshack.us/i/foto0093mu.jpg/)
(http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8/foto0096s.jpg) (http://img138.imageshack.us/i/foto0096s.jpg/)
PS: OMG this doesn't scale :(
(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/7826/foto0097e.jpg) (http://img535.imageshack.us/i/foto0097e.jpg/)
(http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/8977/foto0098z.jpg) (http://img535.imageshack.us/i/foto0098z.jpg/)
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HAHA very nice, this thread has gone so far off topic its awesome.
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HAHA very nice, this thread has gone so far off topic its awesome.
Thanks! :) That made me laugh on this gray day and while on a very boring bustrip ^^,
So what's the wheather like in your country today? pix or it didn't happen!
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Wow, your photographic skills are... representative.
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Wow, your photographic skills are... representative.
Reprisentative of being in a rush to get out of the door and photographing with my mobile phone that has a 'flasher' resulting in a black picture till a few secs before before the shot is taken?
BTW... Have you called a pro sound technician yet?
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Yeah, but you didn't answer your phone.
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HAHA very nice, this thread has gone so far off topic its awesome.
qft
No locking plox.
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Awsome glad you guys are looking into it.
I like your flooring KM did you install it yourself?
Hardstyle sounds like stuff I listened to 15 years ago except slower and not as hard.
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Yeah, but you didn't answer your phone.
Very funny and very completely avoiding the point...
Awsome glad you guys are looking into it.
I like your flooring KM did you install it yourself?
Hardstyle sounds like stuff I listened to 15 years ago except slower and not as hard.
You mean Hardcore? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHTZpJN_EMw
There's a world of difference. (Early) Hardstyle used to sound like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PhyuztPCbM&feature=related
That was the best party evah, btw ;D
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Completely avoiding being trolled. I've been dealing with knowitalls online since before the Y2K Event destroyed 99% of surface life and depostited a layer of iridium throughout the world's geologic record. I don't have to waste the time of someone using his knowledge to earn his living to drag him into some aspie argument over the significance of "-4dB" meaning "x0.39811" or "x2.51189, reverse polarity." Because I know which fucking one it correctly is. If the colloquial in-the-field useage by the guy you worked under differs, that's the trade's business, but trying to say that a shoddily-coded WAV mixer is suddenly blowing up the peoples speakers using the power of $10 built-in Sound Blaster Compatibles is pretty silly. Turning the volume down on the game or driver's mixer and up on the speakers works because it prevents the drivers from amplifying the numeric WAV data beyond 0x7fffffff and 0x80000000, not because of mystical +/- 4dB !voodoo.
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Completely avoiding being trolled. I've been dealing with knowitalls online since before the Y2K Event destroyed 99% of surface life and depostited a layer of iridium throughout the world's geologic record. I don't have to waste the time of someone using his knowledge to earn his living to drag him into some aspie argument over the significance of "-4dB" meaning "x0.39811" or "x2.51189, reverse polarity."
And yet your iridium shield couldn't prevent people comming here and complaining about explosions causing crackling noice. Am I correct?
So... I come over and say: "Well dude here's a fix for it. Then KM confirms my point.
Then you offer to call some pro sound dude. Then I asked if you called him and you said no. And you did not because the iridium filled up the display of your phone so badly you couldn' t call him again.
All I can say is Lol, good4u, and knthnxbye... allthough I won' t kthnxbye because I am starting to entertain myself in blasting the arguments of a know-it-all, being you. As you so nicely tried to write down English at such difficulty that you thought it would:
A) make you look smarter, but it doesn't because realy intelligent people will never try to show their intelligence. In fact: the mark of an inteligent person is being able to explain the most difficult thing to somebody who isn' t intelligent at all (say explain spacetime to a person with avarage IQ).
B) desperately make me stop responding for I wouldn' t understand it, which I did. BTW... "x0.39811"? Nice half assed random access memmory adress, smartass...
Because I know which fucking one it correctly is.
Go fix it then, FFS. And puhlease tell me what you think it is... I will have my fun hooking up my Pioneer mixer. I want to have that explosion effect filmed while getting "Too much db, idiot!"-warning red light on the meters... I'd love to show the rest of this forum how to fix it by reducing the mid frequency db's. I'll prove it by hooking the output of the mixer up to the line in. That'll be soooooooooo much fun. But not for you...
PS: Oh... I read over this BS:
Turning the volume down on the game or driver's mixer and up on the speakers works because it prevents the drivers from amplifying the numeric WAV data beyond 0x7fffffff and 0x80000000, not because of mystical +/- 4dB !voodoo.
You're getting close to understanding the problem, but you got it wrong. And you got it wrong because Wave data (bla bla bla) is digital and the problem lies in cheap ass analog speakers and I am not getting this problem in the first place, rendering your theory wrong.
Allthough if, this 'wave data' limits range, it does fix the problem if you lower the range of the data because you would lower the amplitude of what is that analog signal (FFS hook up an oscilloscope to see the signal comming out of your soundcard... really... do it).
PPS: And this is what I have been saying since the get go. Only you do not know by which standards pro equipment is made.
PPPS: And do not lower the range of the bass and treble, but instead the mid frequencies. That will still make the " scree" scree and your "boom" boom but just without the crackling...
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(http://cdn2.knowyourmeme.com/i/10618/small/trollercoaster.jpg)
*entertained*
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BTW... "x0.39811"? Nice half assed random access memmory adress, smartass...
PUHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHA. Give yourself a star. You're trollin' like no tomorrow.
the problem lies in cheap ass analog speakers
My cheap ass analog speakers.
(http://e.imagehost.org/0058/akg-k701-big.jpg)
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Very funny and very completely avoiding the point...
You mean Hardcore? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHTZpJN_EMw
There's a world of difference. (Early) Hardstyle used to sound like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PhyuztPCbM&feature=related
That was the best party evah, btw ;D
Used to tune into Picadilly key 103 back then every Sunday to listen to Stu allen and the "hardcore hour" "get yer tapes at the ready"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80hQp-TXGGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgdcG_mPN30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeo_z_Q0k9g
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PUHHHHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHHA. Give yourself a star. You're trollin' like no tomorrow.
My cheap ass analog speakers.
(http://e.imagehost.org/0058/akg-k701-big.jpg)
Yeah... ok.. nice plastic.. specs pls? How many speakers per side, the magnet type and fequency range please...
Used to tune into Picadilly key 103 back then every Sunday to listen to Stu allen and the "hardcore hour" "get yer tapes at the ready"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80hQp-TXGGc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgdcG_mPN30
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeo_z_Q0k9g
Wow... Thunderdome... You must realy like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HLZ0IV8Ukg&feature=related
:D
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Nice necro.
Quit the e-bitching folks. ;)