GoldenEye: Source Forums
Global Communications => Development Media => Topic started by: VC on February 22, 2009, 11:49:47 pm
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First of all, I owe an apology to BigBird for my distasteful F10 today. But I'm sick of seeing skilled players drag out the jumphax in what I consider to be honorable dueling.
For the unenlightened, this is what it looks like. http://www.mediafire.com/?zzxnfzhzim2
Needless to say, I told KM to fix this shit and he hasn't yet (that film is from the 3.1 Current build) and that makes me doubly pissed. And it's all Valve's doing... same crap happens in CSS though to a lesser degree since motion in CSS is handled rather differently.
Now, for the fun stuff. I've been doing my best to irritate Lodle about my demands upon his little LUA scripts, which isn't saying much since I can do that in my sleep, and am working towards getting Live and Let Die cobbled together. If Valve keeps breaking our server list and delays 3.1 enough, it might be done in time, but most likely it will wait a little longer. I expect the encrypted (CTX) version of the script could be dropped in by server hosts, so if the engine support is complete by 3.1, perhaps the L&LD script can become a little bonus pack sorta thingie in a few weeks.
I've been doing some math. Goldeneye 007 is really hard to get a read on. For example, the quad-column room in Basement seems to have columns that are 45.34 inches wide. How much more arbitrary can you get? Well, inside that room, the area south of the four columns is 1.5 inches wider than the north lane. Plus, the east wall of that room is the only wall I found that's exactly on-grid. Everything else has a decimal point that turns to chaos as float precision is only good for about six, maybe seven significant figures.
I think I'll just go gray and call it a day.
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Awesomeness.
Just keep on pushing em like i know you do bro it'll eventually get somewhere. -.-
[smiteKM]
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He'll just reset it if you do.
While I wait for Lodle to re-enable scarecrows, I'm writing C++ code. I need to build up a lot of good coding so I will be able to resist putrification when I return to L&LD and the BASICesque junk that stands between its creation and myself.
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Heh, as an artist, I create columns by creating a cylinder and scaling it up until it looks right, and then sometimes selecting individual vertices and moving them individually. If you tried to adhere to mathematical guidelines when modeling, you'd be slow as hell, and probably go insane pretty quickly.
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You just explained Egypt and Greece.
You know 007's geometry is super-basic BSP. Hell, it's hardly that. Catwalks have zero thickness and collision with the ground is handled by moving from one portal to another. If you force yourself to relocate vertically (up through other stories or down into the ground) you will be smoothly corrected toward the appropriate altitude for a second or two.
I can only guess their editor displayed a grid that didn't have an exact unit-pixel ratio and they just aligned by the dots on-screen.
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How do you determine inches from something that doesn't have a concept of real-world measurement in the first place? Do you assign a certain number of inches to an arbitrary object or number of pixels and use that to decide dimensions? Does software determine this somehow?
I'm curious as to how you arrived at those numbers.
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Basement seems to have columns that are 45.34 inches wide.
Note the CYA. I was really hoping they would be 48, but that doesn't seem to work out right. I'm also curious if the vertical scale is a little different. The ceiling/floor distances seem kinda arbitrary, like the walls. Except for that one that's perfectly aligned.
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Heh, as an artist, I create columns by creating a cylinder and scaling it up until it looks right, and then sometimes selecting individual vertices and moving them individually. If you tried to adhere to mathematical guidelines when modeling, you'd be slow as hell, and probably go insane pretty quickly.
QFT on that one. I could never see myself trying to do things by mathematical guidelines. Thats the great thing about being an Artist, is that you create, and don't have to follow the rules....all the time anyway.
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:eyeroll:
All the great artists used math. The whole renaissance was about math and science being accepted as serious business.
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QFT on that one. I could never see myself trying to do things by mathematical guidelines. Thats the great thing about being an Artist, is that you create, and don't have to follow the rules....all the time anyway.
I think that's why I'm still having trouble grasping modeling... everything I do, I'm trying to align to some other point, or to a grid, as if I were in Hammer. Next time I'll make sure not too worry so much about where I'm throwing my verticies...
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Haha careful SSL... i can almost hear the bad meshflow screaming at you xD
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Meshflow is for suits and squares, man. Stop harshing his buzz.
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Heh, being precise about placement and dimensions can be useful in some situations, but column diameters in a game isn't one of them.
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Tell that to anyone who has played Complex in GES 3.0.
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At first I thought you were talking about library/basement_classic, but then quickly realized you were talking about the original game.
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Jump hax sounds about right. The only way to compete against someone doing it is to do it yourself :)
Needless to say it needs looking into.
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KM agreed to investigate my plan, which is to increase jump power and remove +duck while jumping so players can still mantle railings. He is afeared that Source will suprise us with something stupid, but since we're already having problems with getting stuck when touching solid walls, I think we'll be no worse off.
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Agreed, something needs to be done.
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but since we're already having problems with getting stuck when touching solid walls, I think we'll be no worse off.
This i agree. It's worth the try to fix.. even though it's inevitable that they fuck something else up.
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Normally when you meddle in the Source engine, you manage to break something up. That's what my experience of gaming has taught me.
Jumping needs to be fixed. Higher, yes, but get rid of bunny-hopping. It is effective, but people look like retards and it gets annoying pretty fast.
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I was playing GG today, I was getting pretty good reg -- still some non-fatal bleeders but whatever. Everything was fine except for the one guy who kept jumphacking. I could put eight in him and he wouldn't die. The only time I could reg a shot on him was if I shot him during the bunny-hop block delay or at the instant he'd pop his model, which would send his ragdoll into the ceiling.
Regardless, I had one, maybe two no-death rounds. One was rough, since I was already busted up before I got the AuG so I had to milk 10 bars for the full round.
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speaking of getting stuck in solid walls....why does that happen? I always wondered that in complex...since i seem to get stuck all the time. Is that going to be fixed up soon?
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I remember that VC, I played with you at that time. Guess it was BloodyPain jumping around like crazy. It gets really desperate when they take advantage of this bug or exploit, the way you want to call it.
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klax: I want to say yes, but since KM is out of town and is very reluctant to get involved in the issue, it will likely persist until 4.
PPK: It isn't so much desperation, as disrespect. It's like playing original Goldeneye against the guy who keeps bumping your elbow every time you try to attack him. Eventually you just make a fist, swing it into his nose, and play single player missions for a while.
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I said desperate as a matter of speaking; not that I get desperate every time I see someone do that. In fact, I laugh because the movement of the character makes him/her look somehow stupid (Source makes you look like a jumping hunchback) and then I try to aim my best to get him because I know the hitreg on those situations is a bit iffy (iffier than in "normal" situations). I don't like to see them doing that though.
I was never bumped in the elbow while playing GoldenEye 007. I also never did it. It never occurred to me nor to my mates; we don't play cheap.
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What exactly does the jumphax do? I've ran into a few players myself that jump all over the place and I never could kill them, despite landing several headshots.
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You were fortunate. The groups I found usually had me up against Loudmouth Bully, Someone's Little Brother, and Hyper Nerd.
It displaces the view model and the hitboxes and is an artefact of Valve's lack of synchronization between players and animations. The jumphack trick in GES makes your model "pop" about four feet higher than it should be, as shown in the video clip. A similar problem famous in CSS is related to crouching. You shoot your enemy in the head, you see blood, he immediately crouches and blows you away. The problem is that he doesn't begin to crouch on your screen until he is completely crouched plus the time for that info to get to you. That means when you shot his head on your screen, he was already crouched on the server so your bullet went over his head hitbox.
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That little CSS crouch thing reminds me of how Valve refuses to allow the client to interpolate zooming... ever notice why when you are lagging the aim mode tends be very jerky in and out... same problem
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lol.
Today's Golding-gunning, I made it a point to use sight whenever possible just to see if I could learn to use it. I found that if I sighted and waited for a shot I'd hit. If I went into my zen-mode (I am able to shift all control to my subconscious for about a quarter second) and used sight I'd hit. But if I conciously tried to bring up sight and then take a snapshot, I'd miss every damn time because of the position twitch when the lag cleared after a tenth-second.
Not dissing you two, but I like playing against weak targets like Bloody and PPK because it gives me a chance to experiment under conditions where I will lose bars for failing rather than AuG posession.
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I'm told that scarecrows are enabled in current, now. Start the clock, I might be able to get L&LD done tonight because I'm that bad-ass, even in BASIC.
Or at least I think I am, since I just coded a neat little class for precalculating and caching values and it worked on the first try. :D
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Hehe not dissing... I'm not saying I am a better player than I am (my e-balls are sized according to my skills) but I was having a bad case of lagging that day and caves didn't help either. Of course it is normal to be killed by you over and over again, I was kind of enjoying it and trying to score a kill, although Beta 3.1 achievements aren't out yet... ;)
In fact, it may seem strange but the ping you were getting on that server, which was about 130ms or so, was what I was getting on the WN server, where I usually get 45~50.
Nevertheless, I count on you to solve the jumphax problem. I think TF2 suffers from a similar problem too, with the hitboxes floating around the players instead of sticking to them
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No apology needed VC, I know it can get frustrating. Reminds me of a few games I was playing tonight. I saw the client side blood, but the target did not drop dead. It took about 3 hits to finally dispose of em, which needless to say, I finally left the server.
However it will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the future with it fixed. I assume that people will be finding getting frags with the golden gun and the other assortment of weapons, will be much easier.
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Not fixed soon, apparently. I'm being given the 3.2 vibe and I'm not happy about that.
I wish the callback for changing a player model worked. L&LD kinda sucks when it's Bond as the villain.
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You all have to realize that ALL valve games suffer from this problem, the only difference is that none of these games have a one-shot kill gun so you very rarely notice hit reg issues because you are throwing enough lead down the pipe that at least one of them will hit properly. No one reports disgust with the Golden PP7 because its easy enough to place another shot (also its not a guaranteed 1 hit kill).
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No one reports disgust with the Golden PP7
I do.
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You report disgust with everything ;)
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The comments do not look promising.
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I'm upset, for sure. For the double play, the LUA updates I've needed for L&LD aren't being copied over, so I can't even hope to release it upon completion, instead waiting on the patch that fixes the jumps and half of the Klobb easter egg and etc.
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There is no hit reg issue, its called online play.
GES alpha 1.1 was possibly 5% worse hit conditions as this. If an improvement on great/fair hit reg is not good enough for you, you are not good enough to play a valve mod. Enough said.
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And people say I tend to engage in e-dick waving.
Alpha 1.1 was pretty much the same. The only difference in the AuG scenario is that you take a lot more damage when a shot doesn't reg and you can't replenish the armor. In LTK, the much-looser weapons meant you always expected to spam. But now that bullets go where you point them, you don't have a cushion of two or three likely-misses from your opponent when you get a no-reg and he doesn't.
And I'm pretty confident it can be improved. Valve is well-know for stopping at good enough. They stopped at good-enough-for-HL2 and we've been cleaning up ever since.
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Its not dick waving. Its people being silly and me feeling need to step in to clear things up. Basically it means they can get shittier scores than their skill would be on LAN and blame it on us. Instead of learn to play in ping and understand its not perfect.
You are most certainly guilty of being a pure asshole when you have ping, i dont need 20 VC clones running around complaining and the team shouldnt want that either when its not our fault.
edit: Im not trying to block hit-reg from being adressed, it will anyway. Im trying to say I dont feel it necesary that the community bands behind your logic and can then say "oh i missed, must be hit reg" or it could be :
A) your net is shit
B) you are in denial you are shit, and now have a mystery excuse
C) shit happens with ping differences
All those is not a reason to come complaining to Team Goldeneye: Source
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Play on better servers, get a better Internet Connection, stop complaining, play the game or play LAN. Either way, you (guys) are nit picking over the slightest things, in which we have no control over. Unless you can come up with a method to where LAG is no longer an issue in multi player games, well than I suggest you just deal with what we can do.
I'm not trying to be rude, but it just seems alot of people are expecting us to fix all the things that are problems in modern day multi player games.
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To be fair, he did mention seeing blood. I think it's pretty clear that you should've hit if you see blood. I can see where he's coming from. It's not "oh, I missed, must be hitreg," it's "oh, there's blood but no death, god damn hitreg."
Ping only starts to matter after a certain point (granted, it's a relatively low threshold). When things are or aren't happening and ping is low, what else do you call it?
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Unless you can come up with a method to where LAG is no longer an issue in multi player games
Play round time based strategy games.
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To be fair, he did mention seeing blood. I think it's pretty clear that you should've hit if you see blood. I can see where he's coming from. It's not "oh, I missed, must be hitreg," it's "oh, there's blood but no death, god damn hitreg."
Ping only starts to matter after a certain point (granted, it's a relatively low threshold). When things are or aren't happening and ping is low, what else do you call it?
seeing blood means jack squat.
Source/hl2 (and other modern FPS games) uses networking systems that employ PREDICTION and LAG COMPENSATION to smooth gameplay and make the game look correct to the players.
but with lag compensation and prediction what you see and what really happen can be quite different at times, such as the blood sprites showing hits.
what you see is what your computer thinks will happen when you fire at that moment, so you may see a blood splat and impact but on the server end you may not have actually hit so then you yell at your monitor pointlessly "OMG F"ING HITREG"
with a 250ping it takes 1/4th a second for your fired shot to be sent to a server then another 1/4th a second for the result of that shot fired to be sent to you.
so without prediction you would have to wait a full half second to actually see your shot fired.
be aware also that the faster and more frantic a game is the worse the registration and prediction will get.
Prediction is just that prediction and a computer is not any better at telling the future then you or i can.
those who don't have A.D.D or A.D.H.D can read into how it all actually works:
http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Source_Multiplayer_Networking
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I don't bother about that situation now. I know it's something you can't avoid, so I just try to aim steady and land my shots. I also avoid high-ping servers in order to improve my hitreg. Gone are the days of cursing at the monitor.
Of course this "problem" can always be attenuated, but I think there isn't much that can be done to make things better since there will always be a delay on the information transfer. Now about the jumphax problems, they can be solved and that is a priority since it goes beyond the simple hitreg problems; it goes as far as hitboxes.
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Agreed, though its not "hax" its just an exploit. But yes that is one problem that will be adressed, as its grossely unfair, as unfair as bunnyhopping which got the axe in beta 3.0 :D
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"Basically it means they can get shittier scores than their skill would be on LAN and blame it on us."
"play the game or play LAN."
I night or two back, while testing my L&LD against the scarecrow army, I, with a ping of 1ms, shot a bot with the golden gun and he didn't die. Blood sprayed, no death. I shot him a second time and he died.
Clearly 1 millisecond is too much lag. I should play on a better server! Perhaps if I crawl inside my computer case...
Blaming lag also fails to recognize the case of shooting an AFK in the head and doing no damage. When someone hasn't moved in ten seconds, there should be no question at all about where he's at and if the bullet counts. The only way to explain that is if there was a discrepancy between where the client saw himself when he fired and where the server saw him when he fired, and the only way for that to happen is if the client and server player positions are drifting out of sync, and if that were happening, we'd see other symptoms like players getting stuck to objects, ceilings, and floors, intermittanly and in a manner that seems to fix itself when a player does something, like jump, that causes both sides to come to the same position calculation result.
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the built in ob-sdk bots have never been a really good test/replacement for real players odd hitbox and registration problems with them have been seen for a long while now.
don't compare them to real in-game testing with people.
at least not until tony "omega" gets along to releasing the new sdk code with proper bot support and many other fixes/examples.
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Agreed, though its not "hax" its just an exploit. But yes that is one problem that will be adressed, as its grossely unfair, as unfair as bunnyhopping which got the axe in beta 3.0 :D
You obviously haven't seen me in game :/ a retarded bunny rabbit is a good description.
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My second example, the AFK player, is real in-game testing with people.
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I just think let time settle on this coming patch. Then we'll see if servers network conditions fix up and maybe that helps the minor instances of hit-reg.
You know at the end of the day though if you are wrong and nothing can be done, if it pisses you off that much you could just not play LTK mode :P There will never be a tournament for LTK mode so how about just play that mode for fun instead of trying to be pros. You know when i play CS:S i expect to hear adolescents complain about hit-reg and ping drops and stuff....... all im saying :P
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People still play CSS?
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People still play CSS?
1.6 > CS:S - Nuff Said.
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GES > The world
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GES > The world
QFT
In fact, I have played in team LTK on a gamenight, not a tournament, but not really for fun. It is a fine game mode, the one I play the most in fact (and that I didi too on the N64). The problem is more "visible" on LTK due to the nature of the mode itself, where you die with one hit, but it happens too on other ones.
You complain about the hit reg, but just live and let die. They kill you, you kill them back. If it can be attenuated, perfect; if it can't, it won't make me stop from playing GE:S.
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It does indeed suck. The afk player is the best example as VC said. Its not like they are bouncing around making the hitboxes fly about. They are still ffs, still as in been standing there for 10 seconds plus. D'OH