GoldenEye: Source Forums

Debriefing => General Goldeneye => Topic started by: Storm101 on December 02, 2008, 06:47:30 am

Title: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Storm101 on December 02, 2008, 06:47:30 am
Because it's pretty lame how someone can enter a server 2 minutes before it ends, acquire a score of 3 kills and 0 deaths and end up in first place.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: FReXx on December 02, 2008, 06:50:45 am
It is true that it is as strange bug, but when the script is RANK activate it not really bother!
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: MastaGunZ on December 02, 2008, 04:19:42 pm
So is it broke or does it just not organize scores in any way?
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Wake[of]theBunT on December 02, 2008, 04:53:10 pm
what in the freakin hell are you guys talking about? Really im lost
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: PeskySaurus on December 02, 2008, 05:01:41 pm
They are talking about how deaths are proportional to kills in power of score, which does seem silly for an online game. I have NO IDEA what the second poster put, that guy needs to learn fucking English, because whatever he just said, definitely wasn't.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: kraid on December 02, 2008, 05:12:41 pm
Well, the  current system is sorted by Kill-death-ratio (KDR).
so someone with 3 kills and 0 deaths will be displayed above someone with higher scores but also higher deaths, unless this one got at least 3 times more kills then deaths.
I agree, it should be based on kills only.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Wake[of]theBunT on December 02, 2008, 06:15:53 pm
Are they talking about beta 1.1h because i dont recall any official version having for instance  3-0 on the scoreboard beating out a tally of 40-4
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: PeskySaurus on December 02, 2008, 06:30:06 pm
KDR is neat on the N64 version because you are there the whole time (theoretically.)

But having KDR on an online game would be like joining a Starcraft match mid game. Only reversed, (because the lack of deaths would be a huge advantage against everyone involved in combat.)

Are they talking about beta 1.1h because i dont recall any official version having for instance  3-0 on the scoreboard beating out a tally of 40-4

Likely, but not 3-0 beating 40-4. 3-0 beating 4-4 which is a completely unfair scenario if he simply got those non-death victory kills because he joined at the last minute. Or for instance, even if it was 15 kills and 17 deaths, so 15-17, the gyu that joins and gets 1-0 gets the victory. That's silly, given the nature of FPS online games.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Wake[of]theBunT on December 02, 2008, 07:31:09 pm
I think thats to do with inside talks that "incentive" was needed for players who join half way through not to just leave for a different server in which they can stand a chance on the leaderboard, it could probly use some tightening if it favours newcomers over the stayers. Honestly i cant even tell you if it behaves like that right now internally because we just have fun haha :D, who cares whose winning pew pew
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: killermonkey on December 02, 2008, 08:08:18 pm
There is no consideration of KDR in Beta 3.

And due to round based gameplay, latecomers still have a chance @ the leader board on the map, win for all!

Next?
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: PeskySaurus on December 02, 2008, 11:09:35 pm
There is no consideration of KDR in Beta 3.

And due to round based gameplay, latecomers still have a chance @ the leader board on the map, win for all!

Next?

Your first sentence makes it sound good, like it will actually be based like a real shooting game, then your second sentence completely turns that interpretation off. Then your third sentence makes you sound like a dick. I don't want to start a fight with you, I agree with pretty much all of your other posts, but you seem to be missing something.

I don't know why you can't see the balance difference caused by this score method in an online game. In about.... 100% of the successful online shooting games, the only negative score is caused by suicide or team killing on a team game. Kill and death proportioning each other is neat, but has a lot more negative consequences...  then simply following the standard shooting game score system... then positive. Locking games like StarCraft style wouldn't be a better option, it would be worse. Why aren't you listening to your fans? I wasn't even the creator of this topic.

Please pardon all of this if 1.1h is the only version to include all that I'm ranting about, but you came off too cocky I had to address it. If it's a misunderstanding, my bad, but you treat the topic creators point like its nothing, when it clearly is an issue in this game. I just explained it two separate ways in two separate posts. Much love and support, but listen to people that talk to you :/
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Konrad Beerbaum on December 02, 2008, 11:16:44 pm
I think you misinterpreted his post.  Kdr isn't used to determine the game and round winner in beta 3.  I'm pretty sure the gameplay is round based, so the person who wins the most rounds will win the game.  So if you come into a dm server, and there are 5 rounds in a game, and you come in during the 2nd round and win the final 3, you can win the game even if you weren't there in the beginning, but there is no inherent advantage to coming in late, you just still had a chance to win as long as there are enough rounds remaining. 

What KM means is that in beta 3 it is round based, and kdr isn't used for score, so its all a moot point. 
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: PeskySaurus on December 02, 2008, 11:25:05 pm
OH. well i apologize for being so aggressive, just was taken aback. could have had a bit more backstory in his post, but i apologize for getting grumpy about it.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Storm101 on December 02, 2008, 11:51:49 pm
So instead of KDR, Beta 3 is using round based gameplay? How will that work in this game?
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Sean [Baron] on December 02, 2008, 11:51:52 pm
Simple fix, you have to be in the match for a given amount of time (lets say 10 minutes) in order for your stats to be ranked. (10 minutes is just an example, not an actuality). But, Round based works just as well.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: PeskySaurus on December 03, 2008, 01:36:19 am
I can only guess as to what "ranked" means. I usually play Halo PC, Quake 3, Quake 2, or older, so ..... I'm used to game by game basis.

There is actually a ranked site and system for GE:S? Interesting.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: JcFerggy on December 03, 2008, 02:50:39 am
It is most likely easier said than done, but why not just make a option for scoring?
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Sean [Baron] on December 03, 2008, 04:02:21 am
I meant as far as game by game basis goes, not gobal stats, or all time rankings. Thats something we might consider that in the future..
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Jeron [SharpSh00tah] on December 03, 2008, 04:29:05 am
I meant as far as game by game basis goes, not gobal stats, or all time rankings. Thats something we might consider that in the future..

IDK about that, please do NOT quote me on this... im gunna be quoted... anyways, KM said it takes alot of bullshit coding to get steam to accept the appid, anyways i took my time and created the script for him

Code: [Select]

SELECT
t.TABLE_SCHEMA AS `WTF`
 , t.TABLE_NAME AS `WTF=/=lol`
, ROUND(((s.lolerscateablility / IFNULL(t.Skeet_ROWS, 0.007)) * 100), 2) AS `sel lmfao% `

Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: PeskySaurus on December 03, 2008, 05:07:55 am
OK, so ONE developer is saying game by game, and one developer is quoting code for the opposite.  ..... Is anyone in charge of this project? Can we have an ACTUAL ANSWER. Jesus. Is there any coordination in this project? Forgive my agressiveness I just got home from the bar, but for so many people bearing the "developer" title, you have A LOT of conflicting answers throughout this message board. You would think there would be some consistency?

PS: I'm not trying to attack you Sean or anyone, but there seems to be a lot of scattered shit on this board. What the fuck? Is there any... control on this project, and its PR?
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: VC on December 03, 2008, 05:32:05 am
Easier fix to allow fair KDR ranking: When someone joins, their scored KDR is kills / (deaths + deaths of the most-deaths player when you joined).  That way, you can't be better-off than any of the original players when you enter the server.

Pesky: Cool your jets.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Sean [Baron] on December 03, 2008, 06:28:37 am
PeskySaurus you did exactly what Sharpshooter said not to do, to NOT quote him on what he posted. There is no conflicting information given, only misunderstandings, which is why I had to correct you in the first place. Sharpshooter was only following up on what I said at the end of my post, that Global Stats and Rankings might be something we would consider in the future, but as Sharpshooter said, it takes alot of code. For now, we are sticking with exactly what Killermonkey, Vashino, as well as myself, all originally posted -- Which is game by game, So there is your consistency for you.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Jonathan [Spider] on December 03, 2008, 06:51:57 am
Quote
SELECT
t.TABLE_SCHEMA AS `WTF`
 , t.TABLE_NAME AS `WTF=/=lol`
, ROUND(((s.lolerscateablility / IFNULL(t.Skeet_ROWS, 0.007)) * 100), 2) AS `sel lmfao% `

pesky, did you even read his "code". i don't even code and i doubt they are going to call something lolerscateability they would use roflcopterness instead. try not to be such an angry drunk haha.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: PeskySaurus on December 03, 2008, 10:35:11 am
sorry
sorry
and no.
i won't make a habit of posting here drunk, lol. i apologize

maybe i'm just stupid in understanding your answer, cause you guys weren't quite clear to me sober either... ? what ARE YOU DOING as far as points go is all? the guy asked about kill death ratio, and now we have a topic full of code and only now JUST explained "rounds" which, forgive me if im wrong, were never mentioned to the public before. if it was fuck me, but if not, you can't blame the public for not knowing what you guys are doing?
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Loafie, Hero of Dreams on December 03, 2008, 11:31:56 am
OK, so ONE developer is saying game by game, and one developer is quoting code for the opposite.? ..... Is anyone in charge of this project? Can we have an ACTUAL ANSWER. Jesus. Is there any coordination in this project? Forgive my agressiveness I just got home from the bar, but for so many people bearing the "developer" title, you have A LOT of conflicting answers throughout this message board. You would think there would be some consistency?

PS: I'm not trying to attack you Sean or anyone, but there seems to be a lot of scattered shit on this board. What the fuck? Is there any... control on this project, and its PR?

dude, welcome to the last 3 years hahahaha.

also, are you saying we can't blame the public for getting mad at something they don't know we're doing? because i dont think they can't not get mad at something we arn't maybe not implementing.

srsly
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: killermonkey on December 03, 2008, 05:03:06 pm
wow my post caused a commotion... okay I am a dick, but I'll let that one slide for now.

What I meant to say in more words is that BETA 3 implements a round based gameplay methodology (although it can easily be disabled by servers by setting the round time = map time. Anyway, say you join in a server with 10 minutes left on the map clock out of 20 minutes. So you are 10 minutes behind the other players. Well with 5 minute rounds, you have essentially a clean slate to mop up the noobs in the server. Your base scores get reset every round, so kills = deaths = 0. The more rounds you win in a map the more your total rank FOR THAT MAP will go up (this is not yet implemented, but soon will be). Your map stats get reset when the map changes. Now, for teamplay you don't have individual stats, you have team stats. Your team score will continually increase when your team wins more kills. Team scores are unaffected by deaths/suicides.

What it boils down to is you can still do round based awesomeness against other players because of the scores resetting, and next map you can totally dominate because you earned the right to by playing longer.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: 1Rusky on December 03, 2008, 09:29:14 pm
I was wondering if in team play, will the winning team be displayed somehow? Highlighted or a popup or something.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: PeskySaurus on December 04, 2008, 12:22:32 am
again, i apologize for being agressive, you guys are a talented fantastic team. i won't make a habit of coming here after the bar.

i guess i mistook your post as condescending, so i apologize
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: killermonkey on December 04, 2008, 03:02:54 am
I was wondering if in team play, will the winning team be displayed somehow? Highlighted or a popup or something.

What about 1 week and I will answer that question with ingame shots ;-)
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Cloppy on December 06, 2008, 03:47:53 am
again, i apologize for being agressive, you guys are a talented fantastic team. i won't make a habit of coming here after the bar.

i guess i mistook your post as condescending, so i apologize

posting drunk is never a good thing

Ingame rank would be cool but would require centralized stats servers.

Something like CS use to have with servers having a stat website that just read kills and shots from the logs would be cool though. Psychostats was the name if i can remember correctly
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: WNxCJL9788 on December 06, 2008, 01:16:56 pm
If I remember correctly (which I usually do), Iodle made the ranking system in 1.1x based on KDR so that people with a score of 27-4 get ranked higher than those with 29-21 (for example). Obviously this is slightly flawed with latecomers ranking high with lower kill counts etc.

No official release has a scoreboard based on KDR, always Kills. KM has established what is used in Beta 3.

If it bothers you that much, just take the personal victory of having the most kills, or whatever floats you boat.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Mark [lodle] on December 06, 2008, 02:08:59 pm
The ranking system was quick to implement as i didnt have much time to work on it. Monkey should come to the party with something good.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: myrddin on December 19, 2008, 10:02:07 pm
I say keep the KDR in factoring the score, but also factor in time spent in the round. Simplest way to do this would be to take the KDR score and multiply it by the percentage of time the player was present for that round. If they were there at the start, then its no different than normal KDR, but the later they enter the round, the lower a coefficient they get for time.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: kraid on December 20, 2008, 12:31:52 am
I say keep the KDR in factoring the score, but also factor in time spent in the round. Simplest way to do this would be to take the KDR score and multiply it by the percentage of time the player was present for that round. If they were there at the start, then its no different than normal KDR, but the later they enter the round, the lower a coefficient they get for time.
And at the end, noone knows what the scoring system is all about.
It should be keept at overall kills, for ppl with the same score the lowest death count wins.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Storm101 on December 20, 2008, 12:58:42 am
Or we can go with the round-based gameplay that has already been implemented...

It allows people to win if they earned instead of what happened to me (had about a 40-20 score but got 1st place taken by some guy who just entered and got a score of 3-0) while still allowing people who enter in the middle of a match to have a shot at winning. A KDR system with time accounted for punishes these people, as well as a system that goes for overall kills. It's win-win.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Wake[of]theBunT on December 20, 2008, 01:14:16 am
Ingame rank would be cool but would require centralized stats servers.

Something like CS use to have with servers having a stat website that just read kills and shots from the logs would be cool though. Psychostats was the name if i can remember correctly

Serverhosts can already do this. A third party rank system like hl2stats. I know i saw some ges servers with rank in the past and what those give the user is enough.

Its overthetop to enable support for global, more specific stats, and right now impossible that we could provide the necesary provisions for it.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Doc.NO on December 20, 2008, 01:37:19 am
A third party rank system like hl2stats.
LOL, almost all 3rd party ranking systems are based on logs which are buggy in the current public build (yeah, that too).
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Wake[of]theBunT on December 20, 2008, 02:42:02 am
Completely new engine should be fixing that ;)
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: kraid on December 20, 2008, 01:08:04 pm
Being in top of the scoreboard doesn't mean you are the winner in beta 1.1
and i think every1 will admit someone who has 40 kills had done better then someone with 3 kills, no matter the deaths.
But KDR isn't useless at all, it's pretty good for an overall ranking system, but for single matches it fails.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: killermonkey on December 20, 2008, 06:50:01 pm
I will see if I can post some goodies soon with our new and very fair scoring system. Have to get by papa fourtecks first ;-)
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Artisan on December 23, 2008, 09:47:59 am
Maybe I'm retarded, but isn't it just common sense that people coming in late will either have to kick ass, or generally not have a shot to win? I think most people joining half way through a map understand that they aren't' going to be winning, and they prolly don't care if they do win or not considering they didn't get a full map. The only thing that should determine if a player coming in late has a shot at winning, is his/her skill.

Okay, so if it's going to be a boxing match (winner of most rounds wins the fight/map), will there also be other match setup styles/scoring options? I'm assuming that's what Killermonkey meant when he said "...it can easily be disabled by servers by setting the round time = map time...".

And to me, that is perfect. I miss the days when FPS games were simple. Run, shoot, kill, die, spawn, repeat. The Delta Force series was the last of good simple FPS games. So I'm hoping what KM said meant there will be servers with a map rotation (1 round) and set to a time (20min 30min 45min). The winner is whoever has the most kills.

But, I suppose if you want to appease everybody, you can code in some sortable stats at the end of the match. If somebody wants to feel great about having the most kills, they can order the player list by kills. If they want to see who won by k/d ratio, they can organize for k/d ratio. Not too sure how hard that'd be, but providing a sortable stat window at end-game, would allow people to see who won for the various stats.

Anyway, I'm new here. And great mod. Played it for a couple hours tonight. Had a blast.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Cyan on December 23, 2008, 08:51:54 pm
Are their any end of round/game awards in beta 3. Similar to Where's the Armor? AC-10 Award. A kill to death ratio end of game/round award would be nice even if it is not used in the rankings.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Storm101 on December 23, 2008, 09:47:05 pm
Quote
Maybe I'm retarded, but isn't it just common sense that people coming in late will either have to kick ass, or generally not have a shot to win? I think most people joining half way through a map understand that they aren't' going to be winning, and they prolly don't care if they do win or not considering they didn't get a full map. The only thing that should determine if a player coming in late has a shot at winning, is his/her skill.

While this is true, why not make it so they still have a good chance? This is actually quite a big crowd to appease to. Unless you start your own server, I'd imagine that every time someone loads up GES they'll have to enter a server that's already been playing for a while until the map changes and they can get a fresh start. While you may not expect to win, this sytem still gives you a good chance.
Title: Re: Will the scoring system be modified in any way for Beta 3?
Post by: Artisan on December 24, 2008, 09:27:10 am
While this is true, why not make it so they still have a good chance? This is actually quite a big crowd to appease to. Unless you start your own server, I'd imagine that every time someone loads up GES they'll have to enter a server that's already been playing for a while until the map changes and they can get a fresh start. While you may not expect to win, this sytem still gives you a good chance.

I dunno, maybe we just know different FPS groups. Nobody I know would expect to be catered too when coming into a map late. And yes, most likely they'll be entering a server that's already been playing, but I think every FPSer expects and excepts this.They all know if they want a full map they'll most likely have to wait. But this generally isn't a problem as maps time limits are usually never stupidly long, and most people play through a few rotations anyway. So they come in half way through a 30 min match...they get a full fresh map in 15 minutes. I've been playing every FPS under the sun since Delta Force (multiplayer, that is), and this is the very first time I've ever heard it mentioned or suggested that something can be done to "give those coming in late a chance". For the most part, if they are good enough, and some players are, then they'll catch up...everybody knowing they worked their butt off for the win. I know I always got a kick out of coming in half way through a match and leading in kills by the end. I would have hated to have won undeservingly without having the skill or putting in the work.

I'm just odd that way I guess lol. It's like walking into a movie theater half way through a movie and expecting them to restart it for you, or otherwise "catch you up" to the people that have been there and put in the time since the previews. You just have to suck it up, enjoy what's left of the movie, and wait for it to replay when it's over.

Now, I have to problem with various win methods, but to me, it just makes since to have sortable stats, and players can arrange their "first place" by a number of categories. I personally like the "score" system, where you get points for a number of things you do, kills, kill/death ratio, knife kills, dying the least, headshots etc. But that comes more into play with more complex FPS games that have snipers, medics, vehicles, flag caps, etc. Which I HOPE Goldeneye Source doesn't become. Its charm is that it takes us back to the days FPS games were really simple gunfights.