GoldenEye: Source Forums

Debriefing => Bug Reports & Fixes => Topic started by: Death on August 13, 2016, 07:41:17 am

Title: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 13, 2016, 07:41:17 am
The gun damage per weapon is in the exact REVERSE order....

pistols do the most damage the fastest,
smg's do the second most damage,
rifles do the least damage...........
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Mangley on August 13, 2016, 05:08:46 pm
Pistols reward careful headshots

Smgs reward getting as many shots on a target as fast as possible

Rifles reward burst fire and tap shots

Weapon balance is more or less the same as it always has been, damage values of automatic weapons are lower but their damage potential over time is as much as always relative to pistols. In 5.0 you have to put more thought into how you use your weapons, it's no longer just about spamming at head level because invuln used to reward that.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 13, 2016, 05:18:17 pm
well headshots should be rewarded.

what you have is a system that screams throw away all weapons and get a pistol ASAP so you can 2/3 hs someone

with the rifles it takes 4+ headshots to kill and that's just ridiculous.

all guns but the pistols are useless in the game, you guys chose a system that punishes people for picking up the "better" weapons.

at least its fun headshotting with pistols while people spam your face with a rifle with no chance in hell.

you guys have a unbalanced mess and its comical.

pistols should take 3/4 headshots with better moving accuracy
smg's should take 2-3 headhots with slightly worse moving accuracy
and rifles should take 1-2 headshots with extremely bad moving accuracy.

simple. and all you have to do is look at the popular / good first person shooters out there that follow this formula for a damn reason
its the best implementation of weapon balancing.

Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Mangley on August 13, 2016, 06:17:45 pm
Headshots are always rewarded, they're the most optimal way to deal damage. You're just not penalized for hitting other parts of a player than the head now.

You don't seem to understand how broken invulnerability was before 5.0. For example: you could shoot all 80 bullets from the RCP90 into someone's head when they had full health and armor and only about 8 or 9 of those shots would actually register and if you hit the torso before you hit the head your headshot wouldn't count if you were firing rapidly.

If you don't like the changes to game balance then it may just not be the game for you.


simple. and all you have to do is look at the popular / good first person shooters out there that follow this formula for a damn reason
its the best implementation of weapon balancing.


If plenty of other shooters do it the way you want it then play them instead.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: namajnaG on August 13, 2016, 06:22:47 pm
Most "popular modern" shooters actually takes one to two headshots with a pistol. BF takes two in softcore, CS takes two if the enemy is wearing an helmet, CoD takes two, Insurgency takes one, the list could go on. I can't think of any popular FPS that takes more than two pistol headshots to kill an opponent.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 13, 2016, 06:49:26 pm
Headshots are always rewarded, they're the most optimal way to deal damage. You're just not penalized for hitting other parts of a player than the head now.

You don't seem to understand how broken invulnerability was before 5.0. For example: you could shoot all 80 bullets from the RCP90 into someone's head when they had full health and armor and only about 8 or 9 of those shots would actually register and if you hit the torso before you hit the head your headshot wouldn't count if you were firing rapidly.

If you don't like the changes to game balance then it may just not be the game for you.

If plenty of other shooters do it the way you want it then play them instead.

that is a different issue that has nothing to do with balancing the weapons. if bullets are not registering thats a whole different problem.

with rifles it should be 1-2 head shots per kill. BUT if you move around it should be damn near impossible to spam headshots,
smg's should be in the middle, and pistols should have the most running accuracy.

moving accuracy is how you balance the guns not just making smgs / rifles paper weights, open your game
go to any server and look a the most "popular" guns. yup you guessed it. pistols, even people talking in the
game say pistols are OP, i have already won a few game modes with doing nothing but using the pistol because
of how useless the smg's/rifles are.

If you don't like the changes to game balance then it may just not be the game for you.

as a LONG time pc fps player (my first pc i built myself with a summer job had a voodoo 2 card) i can tell you with such poor implementation
 this game is going to be nothing more than a weekend fad,i'm sorry if it hurts that your current system sucks and was implemented wrong,
but i can tell you there is a formula that both makes sense and works and its the same formula that all popular fps's use.

bigger the gun the more damage it does and the less accurate it is while you move.

pistols should be 3-4 bar headshot damage, smg's at 3-4, and rifles at 4-6.

smg's can keep the same headshot damage as pistols as most achually use pistol ammo, but thats irrilevent
you just get to spam more bullets at the head, however if you are more than 30 ft away from the player it should
be inaccurate enough that it is difficult to run and headshot with the smg's.

with the rifles it should be hard to run and headshot if they are more than 10ft away.

and by hard i mean ~30% chance of landing the shot with perfect aim.


i talked to around 15 people on my friends list who played the game and all of them said the same thing, the mouse input acceleration that's forced
and this weapon balancing has made all but 1 of them uninstall the game already.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Mangley on August 13, 2016, 06:56:00 pm
As a long time PC fps player myself I'm suggesting that if you are finding yourself at odds so much with the way we designed this one there are other games out there which would suit you better.

When someone's gripes are with something at what is more or less at a fundamental level like yours are, there's basically no way to reconcile it. You either keep at it and grow to like it, put up with it for as long as you can, or just cut your losses now and decide this isn't for you.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 13, 2016, 07:18:23 pm
nostalgia is a bitch.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/3ornjJSq2s9xznhO80/giphy.gif)

the one thing that makes a game stick for people or not is how it "feels", its always the most important
part of game development.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Mangley on August 13, 2016, 07:29:14 pm
How a game "feels" is ultimately subjective.

If this feels bad to you then play something else. Feel free to play older versions of the mod with 0 other people and insist that it feels better to you. Nostalgia is indeed a bitch.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 13, 2016, 07:35:10 pm
How a game "feels" is ultimately subjective.

If this feels bad to you then play something else. Feel free to play older versions of the mod with 0 other people and insist that it feels better to you. Nostalgia is indeed a bitch.

subjective is true, but when you can look at the fps market and see there are a lot of popular fps's and unpopular ones and all
the popular ones follow the same "feel", has to be something to it.

also updating the movement accuracy / damage per weapon is extremely easy in the source engine provided you guys didn't recreate the wheel from scratch.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 13, 2016, 11:24:34 pm
This is a fast paced arena shooter, you can't try to give a penalty to constant movement by lowering the accuracy while moving. This isn't CS.

Damage and accuracy values are right now, it feels way better than it did on past version, and I played the hell out of them.
If you pick a PP7 over a Phantom, then you're not using it correctly, because you'll kill way more and faster with the Phantom than with the PP7.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 13, 2016, 11:57:56 pm
This is a fast paced arena shooter, you can't try to give a penalty to constant movement by lowering the accuracy while moving. This isn't CS.

Damage and accuracy values are right now, it feels way better than it did on past version, and I played the hell out of them.
If you pick a PP7 over a Phantom, then you're not using it correctly, because you'll kill way more and faster with the Phantom than with the PP7.

fast paced arena shooter or not, the guns damage are opposite what they should be, and i can use a pp7 and double hs most people WAY before they can get the 4+ headshots with the rifles / smgs to kill me.

and i never once said the game should be "cs".

also i don't know what the "previous" version was, as that's irreverent as you both of you have expressed that it was done wrong before.

with the current setup the game can easilly be called "codename: the division" and have little damage popups for how little damage the rifles do.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Mangley on August 14, 2016, 01:04:25 am
Since these are your initial impressions of the mod then, we suggest you learn the game and play it for a minimum of 2 weeks so you can give substantive and meaningful feedback.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 01:09:04 am
What can I say, that's because most people are bad at playing. Once you meet the better players you'll see yourself having a hard time if you try to use pistols only against rifles or SMGs.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 01:22:27 am
Since these are your initial impressions of the mod then, we suggest you learn the game and play it for a minimum of 2 weeks so you can give substantive and meaningful feedback.

Don't need to play it for any real amount of time to easily see in all the servers ive played in people much prefer the pistols over the rifles/smgs, and the ones who do use the rifles/smg's do the worst. (you can also see this trend on the score board at the end of dm's ect when the top few used pistols and the bottom used smg/rifles)

also being a fresh set if eyes its much easier to see issues vs becoming complacent with how it is setup.

What can I say, that's because most people are bad at playing. Once you meet the better players you'll see yourself having a hard time if you try to use pistols only against rifles or SMGs.


i've run into a few players so far who are not terrible and the few i have seen seem to favor pistols and have mentioned how OP they are in chat.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 02:03:47 am
Pretty sure most of those players are new, I haven't seen any experienced player choose a pistol over a rifle when playing "seriously".

SMGs and rifles are way more efficent on killing people than pistols (I'm excluding pistols like the Golden Gun, Golden PP7, Silver PP7, Cougar Magnum and Moonraker Laser, which would fall on high tier weapons).
If you can keep tracking the opponent's head with a ZMG while you're unloading the full mag, they'll be dead way faster than them killing you with a PP7 or DD44 with headshot.

Also keep in mind this is a recreation of the N64 classic, we're not trying to compete against anything when it comes to gamepaly. We just changed the values on this version to be more rewarding to the experienced players; as Mangley explained earlier.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 02:11:25 am
Pretty sure most of those players are new, I haven't seen any experienced player choose a pistol over a rifle when playing "seriously".

SMGs and rifles are way more efficent on killing people than pistols (I'm excluding pistols like the Golden Gun, Golden PP7, Silver PP7, Cougar Magnum and Moonraker Laser, which would fall on high tier weapons).
If you can keep tracking the opponent's head with a ZMG while you're unloading the full mag, they'll be dead way faster than them killing you with a PP7 or DD44 with headshot.

Also keep in mind this is a recreation of the N64 classic, we're not trying to compete against anything when it comes to gamepaly. We just changed the values on this version to be more rewarding to the experienced players; as Mangley explained earlier.

after using every gun in the game for at least one full round each, i can tell you that the only viable rifle/smg is the p90 and the phantom.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 02:30:38 am
The ZMG is really good, specially if you combo it with other guns like the shotgun. D5k can be useful too, and I know I'd use it over the pistols.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 04:30:35 am
I decided to run a custom local server and decrypted your weapon data, after playing around for a while, even with extremely high values its hard to make the weapons not be laser pointers.

maybe ill play with it some more later.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 04:47:52 pm
What do you mean exactly with "its hard to make the weapons not be laser pointers"? As in they do no damage?
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 05:05:50 pm
What do you mean exactly with "its hard to make the weapons not be laser pointers"? As in they do no damage?

no, i mean even if i make their spread from .006 to 100, the bullet grouping is only ~10% bigger, i haven't tried ridiculous numbers so far, but it seems the spread / min spread / max spread function do almost nothing, and the kickback is the only function that actually makes the bullets spread but that is met with extremely jerky screen movement that is unplesent when you put a large enough value to make the guns not laser pointers.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 05:23:50 pm
Jumping is what destroys the spread most, other than that, guns are meant to be accurate if you tap, specially the pistols.
If you rapid fire a PP7 or DD44, the bullets go everywhere, same with the rifles. It's less noticeable with SMGs since their accuracy is not that good in the first place and are usually used in close range.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 05:26:02 pm
Jumping is what destroys the spread most, other than that, guns are meant to be accurate if you tap, specially the pistols.
If you rapid fire a PP7 or DD44, the bullets go everywhere, same with the rifles. It's less noticeable with SMGs since their accuracy is not that good in the first place and are usually used in close range.

i'm talking about creating a custom spead profile on a custom server.

and how ever it was programmed it was programmed to be laser pointers with very little control.

im going to try stupid high numbers like 1 million to see if i can get the bullet to go more than 3 inches from center
no wonder having the rifles do expected level of damage was a poor option, the recoil is poorly implemented, it should have
been implemented so changing spread values actually make the bullets.... spread.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 05:45:07 pm
I don't know how the spread was coded in, but perhaps it was made differently than modifying those values on console, hence having almost no change in the spread if any.

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting to bump up damage on rifles and nerf their accuracy?
I still don't agree on that they do little damage, the speed for getting kills with them feels right and the spread you get when rapid firing from distances is punishing for doing so.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 06:00:42 pm
I don't know how the spread was coded in, but perhaps it was made differently than modifying those values on console, hence having almost no change in the spread if any.

If I understand correctly, you're suggesting to bump up damage on rifles and nerf their accuracy?
I still don't agree on that they do little damage, the speed for getting kills with them feels right and the spread you get when rapid firing from distances is punishing for doing so.

the rifles should be pretty accurate the first few bullets, then get very inaccurate if you spray, and have a high penalty for running and shooting, and it should be very
high damage.

I'm not doing anything in console.. i decryped the weapon files and i'm editing them.

for instance:

Code: [Select]
WeaponData
{
"printname" "#GE_KF7Soviet"
"SpecialAttributesHelp" "#GE_Att_KF7"
"viewmodel" "models/weapons/kf7/v_kf7.mdl"
"playermodel" "models/weapons/kf7/w_kf7.mdl"
"bucket" "2"
"bucket_position" "0"
"clip_size" "30"
"default_clip" "30"

// Weight is used to determine BEST weapon to switch to!
"weight" "4"

"ITEM_FLAG_SELECTONEMPTY" "1"
"ITEM_FLAG_DOHITLOCATIONDMG" "1"

"BuiltRightHanded" "1"
"AllowFlipping" "1"

"primary_ammo" "rifle"

"Damage" "40"
"Damage_Cap" "80"
"rof" "0.117" //Rate of Fire
"c_rof" "0.117"

  "zoom_offset" "-45"

"acc_rof" "0.300" // Rate of Fire needed to maintain minimum spread
"acc_shot_cap" "9" // Number of shot intervals that must be hit to have max spread.
"aim_bonus" "1.5"  // Reduction of the cone of fire when aimed, in degrees.
"jump_penalty" "1.5" // Amount of degrees added to minimum spread when the player jumps.  A full degree is a lot for this.
"gauss" "8" // Higher values mean spread is close to a normal destribution favoring the center of the crosshair.
"gauss_penalty" "2" // Maximum penalties to the gauss value during sustained firing.


HitBoxData
{
"Head" "1.0"
"Chest" "0.5"
"Stomach" "0.5"
"LeftArm" "0.5"
"RightArm" "0.5"
"LeftLeg" "0.25"
"RightLeg" "0.25"
}
  Spread
  {
"x" "0.026383"
"y" "0.020988"
  "z" "0.0"
  }
  SpreadSighted
  {
"x" "0.006449" //"0.011170" Acc + 2
"y" "0.006449" //"0.011170" Acc + 2
  "z" "0.0"
  }
  // Spread angles for the cone of fire.  The minimum angles are used for the first shot fired.
  MinSpreadAngles
  {
  "x" "1.7500"
  "y" "1.7500"
                  "z" "0.0"
  }
  // The max angles are interpolated to during sustained fire.
  MaxSpreadAngles
  {
  "x" "5.3166"
  "y" "4.2298"
                  "z" "0.0"
  }
  Kickback
  {
"x_min" "-0.15"
"x_max" "0.3"
"y_min" "-0.15"
"y_max" "0.2"
"z_min" "0.0"
"z_max" "0.0"
  }



outside of some deleted code this is the current kf7

going wild with:

Code: [Select]
WeaponData
{
"printname" "#GE_KF7Soviet"
"SpecialAttributesHelp" "#GE_Att_KF7"
"viewmodel" "models/weapons/kf7/v_kf7.mdl"
"playermodel" "models/weapons/kf7/w_kf7.mdl"
"bucket" "2"
"bucket_position" "0"
"clip_size" "30"
"default_clip" "30"

// Weight is used to determine BEST weapon to switch to!
"weight" "4"

"ITEM_FLAG_SELECTONEMPTY" "1"
"ITEM_FLAG_DOHITLOCATIONDMG" "1"

"BuiltRightHanded" "1"
"AllowFlipping" "1"

"primary_ammo" "rifle"

"Damage" "72"
"Damage_Cap" "80"
"rof"         "0.117" //Rate of Fire
"c_rof" "0.117"

  "zoom_offset" "-45"

"acc_rof" "0.500" // Rate of Fire needed to maintain minimum spread
"acc_shot_cap" "9" // Number of shot intervals that must be hit to have max spread.
"aim_bonus"        "1.5"  // Reduction of the cone of fire when aimed, in degrees.
"jump_penalty" "1.5" // Amount of degrees added to minimum spread when the player jumps.  A full degree is a lot for this.
"gauss"        "0" // Higher values mean spread is close to a normal destribution favoring the center of the crosshair.
"gauss_penalty" "2" // Maximum penalties to the gauss value during sustained firing.


HitBoxData
{
"Head" "1.0"
"Chest" "0.5"
"Stomach" "0.5"
"LeftArm" "0.5"
"RightArm" "0.5"
"LeftLeg" "0.25"
"RightLeg" "0.25"
}
  Spread
  {
"x" "10.26383"
"y" "10.20988"
  "z" "0.0"
  }
  SpreadSighted
  {
"x" "10.06449" //"0.011170" Acc + 2
"y" "10.06449" //"0.011170" Acc + 2
  "z" "0.0"
  }
  // Spread angles for the cone of fire.  The minimum angles are used for the first shot fired.
  MinSpreadAngles
  {
  "x" "1.7500"
  "y" "1.7500"
                  "z" "0.0"
  }
  // The max angles are interpolated to during sustained fire.
  MaxSpreadAngles
  {
  "x" "100"
  "y" "100"
                  "z" "0.0"
  }
  Kickback
  {
"x_min" "-1"
"x_max" "100"
"y_min" "-1"
"y_max" "100"
"z_min" "0.0"
"z_max" "0.0"
  }



noticed the spread, the kick, the max spread are all extremely high values compared to normal, this second file results in no more than 10% worse
accuracy....

i haven't tried values in the millions yet, i guess thats next.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 07:22:37 pm
Ah, thought you were playing around console commands. Sorry, my bad. E-S is the one that modified all the accuracy stuff so I don't know how he did it.

But yeah, don't expect movement penalties to accuracy, ever. Jumping is the only accuracy penalty you'll get that's related to movement. Same with getting kills dealing only a headshot or two with rifles, it'd totally destroy what this is meant to be.
Most of times you'll kill faster and easier with rifles than with a pistol unless they don't move or aim 24/7.

Not to mention that if you shoot fast with the sniper rifle it's pretty hard to hit anything, same happens with most of the rifles at mid range.

When accuracy changes were in development, I requested it to be so the first bullets always went to the center if you tapped or aimed, and that's what we got in the end, increasing the spread way more than what it was before. (Which was completely random and most of times first bullets never went to the center of the crosshair)
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 07:37:47 pm
Ah, thought you were playing around console commands. Sorry, my bad. E-S is the one that modified all the accuracy stuff so I don't know how he did it.

But yeah, don't expect movement penalties to accuracy, ever. Jumping is the only accuracy penalty you'll get that's related to movement. Same with getting kills dealing only a headshot or two with rifles, it'd totally destroy what this is meant to be.
Most of times you'll kill faster and easier with rifles than with a pistol unless they don't move or aim 24/7.

Not to mention that if you shoot fast with the sniper rifle it's pretty hard to hit anything, same happens with most of the rifles at mid range.

When accuracy changes were in development, I requested it to be so the first bullets always went to the center if you tapped or aimed, and that's what we got in the end, increasing the spread way more than what it was before. (Which was completely random and most of times first bullets never went to the center of the crosshair)

the current system stomps on people who pickup the bigger guns because they believe they will be better.

the pistols are extremely fast and accurate and deal kills in half the headshots. for someone who is able to aim and click like myself
it rendered the smg's and rifles utterly useless. the idea of it being area shooter style is 100% what it should be, however its current implementation is bad, the guns do less damage than weapons in the division.

that with what is ither very poor netcode / bad servers and you get 10+ headshots to kill with smgs, paintball guns are more effective at killing than the weapons in the game.

if i feel remotely up to it and figure out the current implementation i'm just going to make a custom weapon server.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 07:43:57 pm
Kills are supposed to take long unless you do headshots. If you try to rapid fire 2 shots to someone in the head with a DD44 for example, it'll trigger invulnerability and you'll have to wait until the third shot to actually kill him.
With automatics, you need 3-4 headshots to kill, and the invulnerability rarely triggers because of the damage they deal, so you'll kill faster with them.

The servers defaults on 66 tick so I'd say they're pretty acceptable for a game like this. On this version most of the shots I hit that show up with blood actually register, unlike on past versions. Of course some times it'll just eat the bullet and even if they had no invulnerability or anything the server just didn't register it. But not much we can do in this matter.

If they're taking "10+" headshots to kill, they probably have armor, which technically doubles their health. So if it took 3-4 before, they'll take 6-7 if they have full health.

I'm having no problem at all using rifles / SMGs over pistols and still staying on top. I just keep the pistols as a backup (whenever I don't have a shotgun or CMag / Laser) if I run out of ammo and don't want to reload or just want to finish somebody off.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 08:04:26 pm
Kills are supposed to take long unless you do headshots. If you try to rapid fire 2 shots to someone in the head with a DD44 for example, it'll trigger invulnerability and you'll have to wait until the third shot to actually kill him.
With automatics, you need 3-4 headshots to kill, and the invulnerability rarely triggers because of the damage they deal, so you'll kill faster with them.

The servers defaults on 66 tick so I'd say they're pretty acceptable for a game like this. On this version most of the shots I hit that show up with blood actually register, unlike on past versions. Of course some times it'll just eat the bullet and even if they had no invulnerability or anything the server just didn't register it. But not much we can do in this matter.

If they're taking "10+" headshots to kill, they probably have armor, which technically doubles their health. So if it took 3-4 before, they'll take 6-7 if they have full health.

I'm having no problem at all using rifles / SMGs over pistols and still staying on top. I just keep the pistols as a backup (whenever I don't have a shotgun or CMag / Laser) if I run out of ammo and don't want to reload or just want to finish somebody off.

wait so if you shoot someone they become invulnerable!?
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 08:41:16 pm
In past versions, yes. After every hit an invulnerability time would trigger on the opponent, meaning they'd take no damage at all for a brief period of time (maximum of 1.6 seconds if I remember correctly). This has been heavily tweaked for 5.0, I'll quote what Media 2 post said.

Quote
Better Invulnerability

The first of the mechanics we took a long hard look at was invulnerability. There were some positive effects it had on gameplay as a mechanic based off of the original game, but the implementation in past versions of the mod limited the amount of viable strategies in a firefight, took depth away from the game, and could make players not aware of it feel that the hit registration was poor and unresponsive.

For these reasons we have reworked the mechanic extensively. It is no longer the defining combat mechanic it was in in past versions of the game. The new implementation of invulnerability now only limits the damage that a given weapon can deal per 0.5 seconds capping out at its original damage values. This means weapon balance is mostly unchanged, however, automatics now reward careful aiming much more than before. Invulnerability still protects you in cases where multiple people target you at once which was it’s original intention.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 14, 2016, 09:28:17 pm
In past versions, yes. After every hit an invulnerability time would trigger on the opponent, meaning they'd take no damage at all for a brief period of time (maximum of 1.6 seconds if I remember correctly). This has been heavily tweaked for 5.0, I'll quote what Media 2 post said.

so... this mod rewards bad players with poor positioning / poor surroundings awareness?? LOL.

so instead of careful 1 vs 1 combat you are better off running and being shot at by multiple enemies at once so you become invulnerable haha

no wonder ive been in situations when its 1v4 and ive been able to kill them all with ease, you only take some damage when being shot by multiable
enemies at once, that explains a lot and is a terrible idea.

is this invincibility exposed in a config file / as a variable?
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Graslu on August 14, 2016, 11:38:12 pm
The point of this game is to engage combat always instead of trying to be situational or "careful", just like most arena shooters. It's weird to see someone getting focused on unless they're teaming on FFA (Which is bad) or something else like people shooting at the MWGG carrier, so seeing the invulnerability trigger is rare.

This is not about careful combat or rewarding poor positioning, you're supposed to be moving at all times, always; else you'll probably end up lower in the scoreboard since you only get situational kills without engaing into the combat.

You just have to take the invulnerability into account, that's why experienced players will know how fast to shoot or when to shoot instead of spamming into the enemies' chest or sometihng. If invulnerability triggers, you'll hear a different hitsound which sounds like a bullet passing next to you.

As for the invulnerability file, it's here. (https://github.com/goldeneye-source/ges-legacy-code/blob/5e01e1acc74cf7d939746a4cee5c51386c8eea5b/game/ges/server/ge_player.cpp) Look for "CalcInvul"
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Entropy-Soldier on August 14, 2016, 11:45:02 pm
Invulnerability is specifically designed to protect you in cases where 4 people decide to gang up on you, though it is more of a FFA mechanic than a team one.  You're still going to take more damage than you would 1v1, you're just limited in how much damage you can take within a certain period.  I would not advise engaging multiple people at once if it's at all avoidable.

If you really want to turn it off there's a method to do so through gamemode coding but it's not pretty.  We consider it a core mechanic of the game and thus want the experience to be consistent.  Future versions of the game might see the mechanic adjusted further but right now we think it's in a passable state.


Anyway as far as weapon spread modifications go I tested your file and it predictably makes the weapon go absolutely bonkers.  Are you sure you're replacing the file correctly?  The engine will always prioritize .ctx files over .txt ones and will ignore all .txt files if there is a single .ctx file in the directory.

I have no objections to you messing with the weapon values, but if you host a server with changed weapon files please CLEARLY MARK IT IN THE TITLE.


Anyway, glad you're enjoying GE:S enough to have so much dedication to improving it!
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 15, 2016, 12:23:56 am
Invulnerability is specifically designed to protect you in cases where 4 people decide to gang up on you, though it is more of a FFA mechanic than a team one.  You're still going to take more damage than you would 1v1, you're just limited in how much damage you can take within a certain period.  I would not advise engaging multiple people at once if it's at all avoidable.

If you really want to turn it off there's a method to do so through gamemode coding but it's not pretty.  We consider it a core mechanic of the game and thus want the experience to be consistent.  Future versions of the game might see the mechanic adjusted further but right now we think it's in a passable state.


Anyway as far as weapon spread modifications go I tested your file and it predictably makes the weapon go absolutely bonkers.  Are you sure you're replacing the file correctly?  The engine will always prioritize .ctx files over .txt ones and will ignore all .txt files if there is a single .ctx file in the directory.

I have no objections to you messing with the weapon values, but if you host a server with changed weapon files please CLEARLY MARK IT IN THE TITLE.


Anyway, glad you're enjoying GE:S enough to have so much dedication to improving it!

Well if you only go invulnerable with 4+ attacking thats not really a issue imo,

yeah that file is a bit extreme after relooking i just realized i left the kick at 100,
without the kick at 100 the spread is virtually zero. i'm not after some crazy slow paced shooter
spread, but atleast "some" recoil haha.

as for the server i would absolutely advertise that it isn't stock weapon damage.

also i confirmed my file is working via setting rof to 1 second per shot.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Entropy-Soldier on August 15, 2016, 12:53:45 am
Well, invuln can kick in with as little as 2 players or even one depending on the weapon.  Klobb is particularly bad.  It's usually not something you run into though, since the DPS required to hit it with most guns is pretty high.

Anyway it's pretty weird that you're having this issue with the KF7.  Even without the kickback in the file (defaults to 0) it works as expected for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fQQajqMgI&feature=youtu.be


I'm modifying these directly on the dev version though, so maybe that might be why it works for me?  Doesn't make sense to me since it's the same system and the only file that controls these values, but that's the only difference I can think of.  There is a formatting error in the file you posted (missing the last bracket) but I expect that's a copy/paste error and not present in the actual file.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 15, 2016, 01:43:38 am
Well, invuln can kick in with as little as 2 players or even one depending on the weapon.  Klobb is particularly bad.  It's usually not something you run into though, since the DPS required to hit it with most guns is pretty high.

Anyway it's pretty weird that you're having this issue with the KF7.  Even without the kickback in the file (defaults to 0) it works as expected for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_fQQajqMgI&feature=youtu.be


I'm modifying these directly on the dev version though, so maybe that might be why it works for me?  Doesn't make sense to me since it's the same system and the only file that controls these values, but that's the only difference I can think of.  There is a formatting error in the file you posted (missing the last bracket) but I expect that's a copy/paste error and not present in the actual file.

That video is the file i posted in your version? and yeah i left out sound data and texture as it was irrelevant.

when i open the standard game in my server, with that file vs stock the bullet spread is maybe 10% larger full auto...
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Entropy-Soldier on August 15, 2016, 02:08:48 am
Yeah, that's your file minus the kickback and with the bracket on the end, on the dev version of the game which has the scripts in plaintext.

Otherwise the dev version is pretty much identical to 5.0 at the moment, with the exception of a few fixes I've been implementing as bugs are found, so it's pretty odd that there would be a discrepancy.  It's probably not caused by the spread system itself, something else has to be interfering.  Really weird though that you can change some values and not others.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: killermonkey on August 15, 2016, 02:58:24 am
This is where the spread cone is calculated, this is a vector that describes the maximum divergence of bullets from perfect shot down the barrel.

https://github.com/goldeneye-source/ges-legacy-code/blob/master/game/ges/shared/ge_weapon.cpp#L655


This gets handed off to the FireBullets function which applies a Gaussian distribution bounded by that maximum cone to figure out where the bullet will actually go:

https://github.com/goldeneye-source/ges-legacy-code/blob/master/game/ges/shared/ge_player_shared.cpp#L177

https://github.com/goldeneye-source/ges-legacy-code/blob/master/game/ges/shared/ge_player_shared.cpp#L564


ES added a gaussian manipulator that widens the one sigma cone based on what you are doing which provides a much better control over shots then the previous implementation.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 15, 2016, 02:09:43 pm
between what both of you guys said and that video is how i would have expected the gun to react to my crazy high numbers.

i reinstalled the server re downloaded the server files, and reset it up from scratch, i made the ar33 shoot at 1 round per second and used that file for the kf7 (minus kick)

and i got the same results as before, the gun is a laser pointer and that file adds no more than ~10% deviation from stock file.

there must have been something patched in your dev version that fixed the gun spray.

are you running the windows server or the linux server? im running the windows server on a spare machine i had kickin around with a i5 2500k
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Entropy-Soldier on August 15, 2016, 11:35:13 pm
Oh, it could be because spread is calculated independently on both server and client using the same random seed, so you'll need to have the same script on the client as you do on the server for the bullet spread to match up on both.  Sorry for not thinking of this sooner, it's actually been a long time since I messed with the weapon scripts and spread code.

But actually this is kind of interesting.  ROF should suffer from the same issues, and bug out pretty hard if there's a difference in the file between client and server.  It might be worth putting ge_bot into console and checking how many shots are actually connecting, because what you see on the client isn't what's happening on the server if the script files are different.  I hate to say it but it's going to make custom weapon servers pretty hard to run.  Damage values and other stuff only relevant to the server can be seamlessly changed, but what you want is more spread and clients expect the server to match their values for that.

It's still possible to distribute new weapon files to all the clients who want to play on such a server, but please only do that with friends or people who know what they're getting into since they'll have issues playing on any other server unless they change their files back.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: killermonkey on August 15, 2016, 11:50:10 pm
ROF might be fixed with prediction. Spread isn't predicted so what you see on the client is just a visual representation, the server is actually sending bullets in the proper direction. Bullet decals are clientside only.
Title: Re: Gun damage
Post by: Death on August 16, 2016, 12:54:16 am
Oh, it could be because spread is calculated independently on both server and client using the same random seed, so you'll need to have the same script on the client as you do on the server for the bullet spread to match up on both.  Sorry for not thinking of this sooner, it's actually been a long time since I messed with the weapon scripts and spread code.

But actually this is kind of interesting.  ROF should suffer from the same issues, and bug out pretty hard if there's a difference in the file between client and server.  It might be worth putting ge_bot into console and checking how many shots are actually connecting, because what you see on the client isn't what's happening on the server if the script files are different.  I hate to say it but it's going to make custom weapon servers pretty hard to run.  Damage values and other stuff only relevant to the server can be seamlessly changed, but what you want is more spread and clients expect the server to match their values for that.

It's still possible to distribute new weapon files to all the clients who want to play on such a server, but please only do that with friends or people who know what they're getting into since they'll have issues playing on any other server unless they change their files back.

ROF might be fixed with prediction. Spread isn't predicted so what you see on the client is just a visual representation, the server is actually sending bullets in the proper direction. Bullet decals are clientside only.

well if the client is seeing something slightly different in an area shooter i don't think that will be too worrisome.

but i will take your suggestion and use my modified files on my client and the server the same time to accurately modify the files then run them server side only, the difference honestly shouldn't be too noticeable for someone just playing imo.

some of the popular games out there run completely different seeds for server / client weapon recoil / decals anyway and it seems fine. csgo is the first game that comes to mind that has that.

my purpose is not to disrupt but rather show there is a better way, so i wont make anything public that will disrupt a users experience.