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Author Topic: [WIP] Statue Park music  (Read 9646 times)

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marinedalek

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[WIP] Statue Park music
« on: August 08, 2012, 04:36:43 am »

Decided to give Statue Park the "lively" treatment after listening to the original Goldeneye level music the other day. The recreated intro is pretty much identical but for the rest I've laid synth bass and guitars in to give it some more drive. I also plonked a section of the Bond theme in there because, well, why not?

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/69960/Statue%20Park%20-%20Unfinished.mp3

Still a little rough and ready and, as I mentioned before, half-length but any suggestions/critique welcomed!

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kraid

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2012, 08:58:19 am »

The bond theme feels out of place, i suggest you not to use it in this track.
This track needs to be slow, dark and supporting the athmosphere of the map.
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Rick Astley

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2012, 12:26:00 pm »

i think the track was good oddly enough @0:58 i felt that it was part of the theme from Men in Black but Kraid is right the track should be dark and moody and the bond theme doesnt really suit it (however if you do Statue X than it would defintely fit well)
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Emilia

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2012, 12:50:15 pm »

I actually really like this, Bond theme included.

It would be a nice track for the multiplayer version of the map.
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jjmusicnotes

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2012, 02:27:44 pm »

I agree with Emilia in that I can picture this (albeit much more cleaned up of course) as a potential arrangement for multiplayer, however, I also agree with kraid in that it should support and enhance the atmosphere of the map.

Part of this is due to your drum beat.  The constant 1 (+a) 2 (+a) of the drums along with the plunky bass are more reminiscent of something you'd see from Ska or Reggae music.

The intro was nice, because as you said, you left it alone - haha (I realize how much of a slam that sounds, but I really don't mean it as such.)  Instead of just leaving it static, it would be great if you could add some crescendi and decrescendi to help the chords swell - that would definitely be a great addition to the atmosphere of the map.  You could even broaden the scope of your chord voicings -

It sounds like you've got some synth horns and maybe some trombones and possibly a single tuba.  You could re-voice the chords into a lower register and split the tuba part at the octave and get a real beefy, ominous, sinister sound.  Roots and fifths down low of course though.

I really don't like the bond theme at all.  Frankly I'm actually tired of hearing it, and to be honest, what people think is the bond theme is really just the ostinato and the A theme.  EVERYONE leaves out the B section; it's all part of the same theme!  People always try and cram it in somewhere to make something sound Bond-ish.  When I applied for an orchestrator position for this mod (something some programmers did not take too seriously) I even referenced it - though I presented mine as a canon.

One great thing about the original GE sound track is that the original composer didn't fill the need to wedge that ostinato and that riff into every little morsel.

You said that you put the bond theme in because - "Why not?"  Well, to me at least, that come across in the mix - like it was just wedged in there.

Lastly, the mix.  The sound quality of the files is good - even the synth, but it's all stuck in the middle.  Give you parts room to breath and create some space - then the listener won't feel like they have to work to hear all of the parts.  Also, drum 'n bass are too loud throughout mix - they're just accompaniment.  This is especially evident at the end of the sound file where you try and have a loud brass climax.  The drum 'n bass really take away from that.

That all said, well done with what you've got so far, keep on truckin' and I'm looking forward to the next update!
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marinedalek

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2012, 09:33:24 pm »

Wow! Some fantastic comments, all of which are very helpful! The frenetic multiplayer feel is what I was going for, rather than the more stately ambience you'd want from single player. The drum beat is something of a weak area, largely because I've never played drums or had very much experience programming them so I tend to go "bum tish, that'll do, move on to something else"  ;)

The controversial guitar riff  :) I agree, it is shoehorned and was something of an indulgence because I already had the guitar out to do the lead over the second repeat of the first Statue theme. One thing I've just noticed in Statue X however is that it does actually have that whole riff on marimba/glock so there was a certain amount of "throw a bit of the theme in" among the composers.

I may split that off into a pure "Bond Theme" piece and do my own take on that rather than force it into this piece.

jjmusicnotes, your suggestions about chord voicing have given me quite a bit to consider; at first I just copied the existing phrases verbatim then layered my additions over the top, I suppose out of fear that messing with the inversions, octave doubling or whatever would either make it sound overblown or weaken the harmony. I'll just go for it and see what happens :)
Dynamics are a good idea... for some reason I got stuck in the mindset of having every "lifted" element from the original track being a carbon copy rather than taking the chance to give it more feeling. There are dynamics there in some places already, such as the held chord lead-in to the first theme.

As far as the pure mix goes, I haven't done an awful lot of EQ yet so there's some mushiness that can be pulled out and a lot of it is centre-panned (a habit I've picked up to mix in mono first then expand to stereo to avoid phase problems or muddiness in a mono downmix).

Here's the version of the track I've been using as a reference btw - the original track produced which was then reconstructed and sequenced from instrument samples in-game.
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jjmusicnotes

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 02:47:45 pm »

I am very glad that we can have a good discussion about this!

I think that even if you left everything else the same, and only changed the drum beat, you would hear an interesting difference.  My advice would be to listen to some techno, listen to some drum 'n bass, and (especially) listen to the tracks already done for this mod - basstronix and sole signal both do a great job with percussive balance.

I don't blame you about the riff - especially if you've got your equipment out already.  Whenever I record, I do the same thing. 

You are also right about the composers alluding to the theme and putting in thematic motifs.  One of the great things about the bond theme is that it is so well known that you really only need to just imply it and people will understand what you're doing.

You can do that through transposition, augmentation, dimunition, inversion, retrograde, etc etc etc.

Arrangements are usually unique.  People know the original track - it's old.  With the voicings, it depends on how tactful you are.  Obviously if you make them dense in the low register it's just going to sound like crap, but the nice thing about brass instruments is that you don't really have to worry about octave displacement.

My suggestion for something to try for those opening chords:  double the tuba at the octave for those low pedal notes, bring the trombones down to the mid-bass clef, and bring the horns down as well - horns can go surprisingly low, and have a very unique sound in that register.  If you're not dealing with actual instruments but just a brass patch in a piano roll, then my suggestion would be like:

Low voices = C0-C1 range
Mid voices = C1-C2
High voices = C2-C3

Alternatively, what might give you a different sort of ominous / ethereal sound would be to have the strings in the low register like that doubled with low clarinets or something and horns for a really warm and smooth texture.

You could also thicken the chords with suspensions to create some more dissonance, like a Em7add9 chord.  Low to high a nice voicing would be: E, E, B, G, D, F# for example.  Don't be afraid to play with inversions - experiment is how you decide what you want!

It will be overblown if you:

1.) Too many instruments
2.) Too loud
3.) Chord too thick

It will be weak if you:

1.) double improperly
2.) too quiet
3.) uncommon instrument groupings

Changing chord inversions will really only determine the the stability of your chord.



Yes, you're right about having some dynamics already - and I like how you have that swell with that held chord before all that brass comes in; all the more reason to put more dynamics in!

Don't get me wrong, EQ can always help, but I think if you also did some simple panning techniques, you'd see a marked difference in your mix as well.

My suggestion would be to look at your instrumentation for your mix, then imagine all those instruments / sounds as a live group on stage.  Position them where you would imagine them to be.  If you need help with that, let me know and we can go into much further detail.

Mixing into mono is a good habit to check for distortion, muddiness, or phasing, but when you're dealing also with professional samples, that isn't much of an issue.  Also following the rule of 3 when recording will help with that as well.

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marinedalek

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 05:08:02 am »

Well I've done some more work on the track. There's no drumbeat at all at the moment until I can work out something that fits. I've removed the Bond riff and replaced it with the short light section in the original track. I've done a lot of work on dynamics and the track now builds slowly to the fanfare. In terms of the bass synth, I've replaced it with a more conservative basic sound, but with a hollow FM emphasis over the first theme section.

I'm actually quite liking the track without a drumbeat, so I may just add some conservative rhythmic clangs and hits to push the track along. You'll probably notice that I couldn't resist adding the trademark "Eric Serra Clang" ;)

For the rest of the track I'm considering working in some of the elements of the movie soundtrack from the Statue Park scenes but I need to listen through that a few more times to get a feel for what might go well.

There are lots of twiddly bits I've not mentioned but that's pretty much all the major changes. Enjoy!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/69960/Statue%20Park%20-%20Unfinished2.mp3
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markpeterjameslegg

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2012, 10:43:48 am »

This is great, a really cool beat should come in on the second time round to up the pace.
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Emilia

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2012, 10:56:44 am »

I actually prefer the older version.
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CCsaint10

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2012, 09:23:50 pm »

I kind of think half and half about the two versions. I like the dynamics of the second version and how it builds, but it doesn't build enough. You need to add the beat that starts at 0:22 in the first song and the "perfect dark" electronic sound that is in there near the second part of the new version. It needs to start out soft build, build, build, then put in that beat into the middle to end portion. The drum beat really makes it stick (imo) but it needs to be later on, not the whole song like the first one was.

Consider starting the drum beat from the first one at 0:44 in the second revised version you did. That would be a good building point before fan fair...then silence it again after the fanfare with just the symbols

And I also like how the bond theme isn't in there anymore, good job
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 09:26:40 pm by CCsaint10 »
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marinedalek

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2012, 01:37:37 am »

Ok, here's today's work. The intro hasn't changed, but from then on I've added various layers of percussive sounds, mostly samples from freesound.org of people kicking things, using rubber stamps etc. processed heavily. The track now goes as far as the repeat of the opening chords, over which I've layered some of the rhythm track and some orchestral bass drums along with more Serra bongs. The idea was to get a similar feel to the music that accompanies the satellite dish emerging in the film.

As an aside, if anyone knows where I can get my hands on some orchestral bass/baritone singer "shouts" (you know, the "hoh! hey!" that you hear throughout the Goldeneye score) then that would be very handy!

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/69960/Statue%20Park%20-%20Unfinished3.mp3
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Emilia

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2012, 04:06:19 am »

I'm not so sure about this version. Some things sound out of time
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markpeterjameslegg

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2012, 07:24:36 am »

Oh yeah, I like this version, different kickdrum type though, one that stands out above the bass a bit more, then it'll be perfect for me.
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marinedalek

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2012, 03:12:43 pm »

There's an echo on some of the rhythm that I tuned slow to give a push/pull effect which I can tone down. That's probably what's giving the out of time feel. With the kick drum, I don't want it to dominate the mix too much which is why I picked a fairly subtle sound. I'll have a play with it though and see what I can come up with.
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markpeterjameslegg

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2012, 03:20:23 pm »

There's an echo on some of the rhythm that I tuned slow to give a push/pull effect which I can tone down. That's probably what's giving the out of time feel. With the kick drum, I don't want it to dominate the mix too much which is why I picked a fairly subtle sound. I'll have a play with it though and see what I can come up with.

Oh no... The volume is fine, just the kickdrum type is what I meant, I feel the current one to be too soft, check these:-

http://free-loops.com/7006-crunk-kick-drum-2.html

or

http://free-loops.com/6983-crunk-kick-drum.html

Actually, I just listened to it again and your current kickdrum is starting to grow on me now. Statue Park was one of my favorite Goldeneye tunes, Frigate being top, and I can tell you now, this is a great job you've done.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 03:25:20 pm by markpeterjameslegg »
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jjmusicnotes

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2012, 03:57:36 pm »

Overall, this next version is much improved - I think that the accompaniment is much more balanced in the quieter parts, and that the balance now suits the ambience and the atmosphere of the map.  In addition, I think the types of percussion sounds also fit the texture of what you're going for as well.

I think that the voicings of the brass in the intro is better.  I think it could be even darker though, but that's just personal taste.  I also think that a lot more could be done with dynamics; really getting those chords to swell in and out.

The brass could be a little louder after the first orchestral punch - or you could bring down the percussion.  Right now to me, it's a tiny bit overbearing.

Overall I think that what you have for a beat is much improved than before - though I would highly recommend listening to the OST done by the current music guys in order to get a good sense of how their percussion compliments the rest of what they're doing.

At the large build, the beat drops out, which is interesting and a bit unfulfilling.  Again, listen to other tracks and steal stuff if you have to.  As for that deceptive climax, I think that would work well in a single-player level situation (as I understand you are modeling this arrangement after the level,) but I think that if you used the percussion to elevate the track to a heightened intensity, and then released that tension by doubling the tempo of the beat.  In other words, if you went from common time to cut time; keeping the original melody at the same tempo.  This would lead to a much more effective, high-energy arrangement; which is something people are looking for with multiplayer.

Lastly (for now,) I think that the guitar is a bit loud in the mix.  It also sounds different - like it doesn't fit - with the patches that you have going on.  This is a common problem when mixing live recorded sounds with patches.  I would play with some eq or throw a filter on that guitar track so that it sounds like it belongs more with the rest of the instruments in your mix.

Keep it up, and I'm looking forward to more improvements!  Great work so far, this is really starting to come along nicely and I see potential for it to be an awesome track.
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terps4life90

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2012, 05:12:44 pm »

I thought this was quite good, but the guitar needs to fit in better.
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Sole Signal [Audix]

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2012, 06:04:23 am »

(I listened only to the most recent download in the thread.) I do like this track; it has some nice brass work with some decent samples. Kirkhope's original is a pretty slow song but your rendition is very good. jjmusic has some great ideas on song development. A few of my own thoughts, mostly related to production and mixing:

1. Production-wise, the track in general feels a little "oppressive;" there are lots of lows and mids but few upper frequencies to brighten up the mix. 1:01 brings some nice relief but you could still add more. More on this later.

2. Beat at :24 is a good start, though I'd play around to see if you can develop a rhythm that grabs more interest. Maybe try half time at this part? More of a personal preference maybe.

3. Beat at :45 would be a nice time to bring in some upper frequency range percussion-rides, tambourines, brushes, etc. You've got plenty of room in the frequency spectrum.

Below is the spectrum analysis of your track at :45. Notice the dropoff beginning around 4-5k. That's where your "brightness" and clarity in the mix comes in.



For comparision, I quickly screengrabbed my "Life of a Spy" track, which is a little similar to yours I think. Notice the highs, which gives the track clarity and brightness. You've got plenty of room up there above 5k to add some percussion, or even boost the highs a bit on some of your bells/chimes/vibraphone sounds.




4.
Guitar at :44 does sound out of place. It's too dry for the sounds that you have around it, and sits too upfront in the mix for that amp choice.

5. The texture and hits at 1:01 are pretty awesome. Again, room for more in the high end! Nice powerful sound there, though.

6. I think you need a nice driving beat at 1:30 to bring the song forward. Otherwise, it sounds like it's dragging a bit there.

Overall, a very good start. You've got a good sense for ebb and flow. Samples sound pretty good. 1:01 shows a good sense for texture and leaving space in the mix for certain instruments. Good luck with this!
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 06:12:15 am by Sole Signal [Audix] »
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005

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Re: [WIP] Statue Park music
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2012, 06:34:52 am »

I think it sounds naiiiiiiiice, although, yes, you probably out to tone down the drums and bass a smidge.

I thought the overly distorted guitar at about 1 minute in (the part right after the Bond theme) was terribly out of place, though. It didn't really work at all. But I love the beat and the bass. It just needs a bit less jazzing up. This is, after all, a dark and slower themed map. Maybe dial back the tempo 10 or 20 BPM.

EDIT: heh, that was for the first version. Still, the distorted guitar sounds even more out of place without the drum beat. The "fanfare" near the end is really cool now though.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 06:38:51 am by 005 »
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