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Debriefing => Off-Topic Lounge => Topic started by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 23, 2009, 01:07:49 pm

Title: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 23, 2009, 01:07:49 pm
I'd like to talk about our philosophies of God and the world. Just as long as we show some respect to one another, and speak gently.

What do you guys believe in? Do any of you care to share some of your thoughts on the nature of God or the universe?

If you find my post too long and don't want to read it, that's fine. But I'm still interested in what all of you personally believe in. So please tell.
___________________________________

I'm a Christian. I believe that this existence has a purpose. It's purpose is for us to willingly make the decision to open our eyes to the truth.

Modern science so far shows that the universe MUST have a starting point. If you put the universe in reverse, the point of it's origin can't continue to get infinitely smaller, because it would take an infinity for the universe to ever come into existence. That's obviously not the case, since we are here.

Having a starting point, something must have been there independent of it to bring about it's existence. It must have a cause. You cannot get something out of nothing. I believe that something has to be God. The universe can't shrink back to infinity, since we are here, but that doesn't mean an infinity doesn't exist. That necessary, independent, inconceivable infinity is the eternal and uncreated being; God.

An effect (the universe) must resemble it's cause (God). It's impossible for an effect to possess something it's originating cause did not have.

"...Can we understand the cause by its effects? Yes, we can, with the following characteristics being surmised:

• He must be supernatural in nature (as He created time and space).
• He must be powerful (incredibly).
• He must be eternal (self-existent).
• He must be omnipresent (He created space and is not limited by it).
• He must be timeless and changeless (He created time).
• He must be immaterial because He transcends space/physical.
• He must be personal (the impersonal cannot create personality).
• He must be infinite and singular as you cannot have two infinities.
• He must be diverse yet have unity as unity and diversity exist in nature.
• He must be intelligent (supremely). Only cognitive being can produce cognitive being.
• He must be purposeful as He deliberately created everything.
• He must be moral (no moral law can be had without a giver).
• He must be caring (or no moral laws would have been given).

These things being true, we now ask if any religion in the world describes such a Creator. The answer to this is yes: the God of the Bible fits this profile perfectly. He is supernatural (Genesis 1:1), powerful (Jeremiah 32:17), eternal (Psalm 90:2), omnipresent (Psalm 139:7), timeless/changeless (Malachi 3:6), immaterial (John 5:24), personal (Genesis 3:9), necessary (Colossians 1:17), infinite/singular (Jeremiah 23:24, Deuteronomy 6:4), diverse yet with unity (Matthew 28:19), intelligent (Psalm 147:4-5), purposeful (Jeremiah 29:11), moral (Daniel 9:14), and caring (1 Peter 5:6-7)."

Deep in our hearts, we all know that He is real. But we are blinded by our sinful nature. We were all within Adam. When he sinned, we all did. Humans inherent a sin nature. Even the tiniest wrong cannot be allowed to enter the perfect and Holy being of God. So we are all destined for eternal separation (Hell) from God. Being a perfect and just God, He cannot leave wrong unpunished. Being a loving God, he did what needed to be done to save us. He sent his Son, Jesus Christ, God incarnate. Only God Himself could pay the price for what we did. Christ is the sacrifice for all of man's sin. As long as we have faith in Him all of our sins are wiped clean, enabling us to stand before God in paradise.

I believe that is the purpose of the universe is this: Are you with Him (everything)? Or are you against Him (nothing)?

Our purpose is to willingly make the decision to open our eyes to the truth. To know that we have utterly nothing without God. To accept that He is the only way to anything real. If we can't do right with this finite reality, how can do right with true eternal reality? People deny Him because of original sin. The idea that we can be as God is. The idea that we are in control.

People ask why does it have to be this way? If God is all-powerful, then why doesn't he just *blank*? God is perfect. This is a part of His plan. It HAS to be this way, otherwise it wouldn't be. It is the best thing that possibly could have been. It is all necessary, and it serves a purpose. If we have faith in Him, we will be with Him after this life. All things will be realized then, and we will see that all His decisions were perfect. All of this will be laid out in front of us. We will be in the presence of God, eyes finally open, glorifying Him for eternity.

God has fully revealed Himself in The Bible. It is up to each of us to cast aside our damned pride, and sincerely look for the truth of truth. Your relationship with God is personal. If you earnestly seek Him with all your being and call out to Him, He will hear you. He will open your eyes to the Scripture, His Word, so that you can see it for what it is; truth. His Word says that the only way to establish your place in eternity with Him is through His Son. Once you accept Christ, the Holy Spirit will be with you. It will teach you His ways. It will prepare you for your true eternal life.

If you refuse to open your eyes to what you know in your heart, and if you refuse to open your eyes to The Bible, then throw yourself into the studying of the universe. Rational science will ultimately force you into believing the existence of a creator. And that belief, if true and sincere, will lead you right back to The Bible.

To summarize, a creator is the only rational conclusion as to how and why we are here. The nature of everything points to God in The Bible as being the one true God. The only way to achieve what we are meant to do is through His Son, Jesus Christ. We need to lay down our foolish pride and open our eyes to truth.

That is what I believe.

But this is all very general. I'd like to get more into it. I'm very interested in what all of you personally believe in. Which is why I ask this:

Does anyone else want to share some of their beliefs on the nature of God or the universe?
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: killermonkey on August 23, 2009, 07:28:16 pm
I am an engineer and an Atheist. 100% believe in evolution and Big-Bang or similar theory.

Nice post, btw.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Rodney 1.666 on August 23, 2009, 08:39:40 pm
Evolution FTW. (Though it could be faster...)

I imagine that would have ended up here (http://forums.goldeneyesource.net/index.php/topic,4016.0/topicseen.html) had I not said anything.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: major on August 23, 2009, 08:46:13 pm
I am an engineer and an Atheist. 100% believe in evolution and Big-Bang or similar theory.

Agree as well.

Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Konrad Beerbaum on August 23, 2009, 08:49:12 pm
I don't see much to discuss.  There is a lot of circular logic in your post, and most of your "arguments" require a belief that a god exists to begin with in order to be true, so they aren't convincing to someone who doesn't believe that. There is also no rational reason that your version of a god is any more real than any other religion.  Going even deeper, most of the facts or arguments that you base your reasoning on are huge assumptions that you believe to be true, and aren't able to be proven or disproven. 

To give you an example, most of your reasoning comes down to: God is real because the bible says so.  The bible is true because god wrote it.  You see the flaw. 

In short, you're free to believe whatever you want.  However you are wasting your time if you are trying to prove religion using rational arguments when the entire thing is based on faith. 


Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Kratos on August 23, 2009, 09:11:20 pm
Konrad I love you. I think we should just close this or it may get into a angry discussion. Its up to you.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Rodney 1.666 on August 23, 2009, 10:21:53 pm
I don't see much to discuss.  There is a lot of circular logic in your post, and most of your "arguments" require a belief that a god exists to begin with in order to be true, so they aren't convincing to someone who doesn't believe that. There is also no rational reason that your version of a god is any more real than any other religion.  Going even deeper, most of the facts or arguments that you base your reasoning on are huge assumptions that you believe to be true, and aren't able to be proven or disproven. 

To give you an example, most of your reasoning comes down to: God is real because the bible says so.  The bible is true because god wrote it.  You see the flaw. 

In short, you're free to believe whatever you want.  However you are wasting your time if you are trying to prove religion using rational arguments when the entire thing is based on faith. 

QFT
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: 1Rusky on August 23, 2009, 10:22:39 pm
I'm a Christian, but some of my views do differ from those of the Church. I believe that all religions will ultimately lead to God. All good men will find salvation except for those who have rejected Him. I've never gotten real big into reading the Bible. I think that some stories in it are meant to convey a moral and not all may have happened. I'm also not sure that God wrote the Bible, but rather those who were close to Him did.

I don't have a problem with anyone's religion or lack there of, only those who disparage one or the other. It's a growing problem in society today, too much is placed in materialism. The reason why evolution and the whole science thing doesn't do it for me is that it doesn't explain how the universe happened. There has to be something that comes before this and that; there must have been a creator.


I feel it requires more faith to believe in the science ideology than it does being religious. To just simply accept that after you die, it's over; just darnkness. That is way too bleak for me. There's a purpose to live. I'm not one of these people who say that God has a plan for everyone, I think that everybody can think for themselves and make their own way in life.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: jjmusicnotes on August 23, 2009, 10:50:06 pm
There are studies that show that individuals who believe in something larger than themselves perform better in all areas of academics.

I don't have specific numbers because I don't remember them, but I remember reading the studies.

From a religious standpoint, if God is all powerful, then God created evolution, and since you guys believe in evolution, then you believe in a thing that was created by God.

And although it has been said that you can't rationalize a belief, I am willing to bet that no one here has actually seen something evolve with their own eyes, and because of that, we cannot help but believe that the data reported to us is true.  We cannot help but trust that the researchers who gathered the data know what they were doing.

The only reason any of us believes anything to be "true," is that evidence of the contrary occurred at a rate non-conducive to supporting different results.

The process of my logic, I think, can be held in accordance to anything that you percieve as fact.

And if someone completely negates the possiblity that I may be correct in some respect, they are no more irrationally clutching onto their "beliefs" as someone who believes in God.



Although Pascal's wager does contain it's logical fallacies, I think that Pascal introduces an interesting point.

To the athiest: What is so wrong about believing in something that promises to yield only positive reward?

I've heard arguments from athiests that say, "Well, what if I go about my life, live a happy life, help people, do good works, and am a decent person?  Do I really need to believe in God to do those things?"

As I understand it, no, you don't.  However, if you're an athiest, then you believe that after you die, you're just going to rot in the ground for another 10 billion years until the Sun implodes and then explodes. 

So where's the motivation?  If you think that the end result of your life is not contained within the measurement of those whom you help along the way, is not contained in what lies beyond the life of your flesh, then there's really nothing for you to look forward to is there?

Is it that you don't want to feel like you're "auditioning" for heaven?  Is it that you don't want to feel like you're obligated to act or behave a certain way?  Is it that you're afraid of feeling constrained, like you won't be able to live the life you want to live?

Or is it that you don't want to be one of those people "blindly" following God without any proof?

In the end, aren't your fears and worries all beliefs based on your perception of reality?

In my experience, all athiests ever do is try and poke holes in things that they're too afraid to talk about or explore.




You guys want to talk about rationalization.  Ok.



How about we figure out the probability that our Earth, and everything on it, was created by chance?

Any takers?

It's easy.  First you just need to figure out how much stuff is in our uniformly expanding universe (which, at it's present state is 13.7 billion light years in diamter.)  Of course, assuming that we have just the one universe.

'Cuz I think quantum physics says otherwise.  Oh yeah, that's a type of science.

Anyway, once you figure out how many things we have, you then need to figure out the most basic conditions that need to occur to support life.

Then you need to calculate the likelihood of the conditions for each "thing" in the universe to see whether or not life would be possible...

blah blah blah

and then you figure out how all those conditions just happened to appear in the Milkyway Galaxy, 93 million miles away from our sun.



You guys have a right to give JessEH a hard time - faith should be, and needs to be explored; something he was attempting to do by starting this thread.

However, if you're going to talk about this, at least have the decency to post more than one sentence in response.

All it shows is an inability to articulate your own rationalization of your own beliefs.

Don't fault JessEH for something that is inherent in all human beings, and if you think I'm wrong, then I would say that you're just proving the point.




@ Konrad -

Whether or not you want to believe it, life is based on faith.  Faith that someone loves you, faith that you're confident in the skills that you have, faith that you're family is going to be there for you when you need them.  Faith that you're going to be able to have a job every day.

Even the numbers that we all hold so precious, the numbers that quantinize our "beliefs" into what we percieve as reality, are all based on faith.

The number 4 is only worth what it is because all your life, everyone has told you that, and you have never believed otherwise.





To all the engineers and programmars, let me put creation in terms that you can relate to:


You don't believe that video games are created by random series of numbers and letters coalescing to form bits of code do you?

So why would you think that the universe and our existence is random?

Just because you don't understand the source code for life, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.
 
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Sporkfire on August 23, 2009, 11:08:56 pm
I think existence itself is mindboggling itself, so I tend not to debate about my own.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Konrad Beerbaum on August 24, 2009, 12:39:43 am
From a religious standpoint, if God is all powerful, then God created evolution, and since you guys believe in evolution, then you believe in a thing that was created by God.

Huh? If you don't believe in god, that is irrelevant.

Quote
And although it has been said that you can't rationalize a belief, I am willing to bet that no one here has actually seen something evolve with their own eyes, and because of that, we cannot help but believe that the data reported to us is true.  We cannot help but trust that the researchers who gathered the data know what they were doing.

The only reason any of us believes anything to be "true," is that evidence of the contrary occurred at a rate non-conducive to supporting different results.

Sure.

Quote
To the athiest: What is so wrong about believing in something that promises to yield only positive reward?

It doesn't yield only positive results.  For most people, living their daily life, who follow a religion, I have no problem with.  My mom is pretty religious, and I have no problem with it. 

There are really only 2 issues I have with religion.

1.  In science, when something is unknown, Scientists try to find out what it is.  They are constantly looking for answers, and theories are constantly being tested to see if they are true or not.  If new information is discovered that contradicts a theory, the theory is thrown away and they try to find out the answer again.

With religion, when something is unknown, religion makes it up.  If new information comes to light, religious doctrine rarely changes to reflect that new information.  Not only does this result in incorrect information, but it stops people from looking for the real answers. 

2. Religious intolerance and the refusal to be rational.  Some religious people think they have all the answers act act negatively towards others because of this.  One example would be in the other thread and Beatles intolerance of Islam.  I saw that thread and just ignored it even though his beliefs didn't reflect mine, but Beatles had to post a long post bashing his religion.  Other examples would be when people blindly follow religious doctrine and it negatively affects others.

Quote
 
I've heard arguments from athiests that say, "Well, what if I go about my life, live a happy life, help people, do good works, and am a decent person?  Do I really need to believe in God to do those things?"

As I understand it, no, you don't.  However, if you're an athiest, then you believe that after you die, you're just going to rot in the ground for another 10 billion years until the Sun implodes and then explodes. 

So where's the motivation?  If you think that the end result of your life is not contained within the measurement of those whom you help along the way, is not contained in what lies beyond the life of your flesh, then there's really nothing for you to look forward to is there?

Is it that you don't want to feel like you're "auditioning" for heaven?  Is it that you don't want to feel like you're obligated to act or behave a certain way?  Is it that you're afraid of feeling constrained, like you won't be able to live the life you want to live?

Or is it that you don't want to be one of those people "blindly" following God without any proof?

In the end, aren't your fears and worries all beliefs based on your perception of reality?

In my experience, all athiests ever do is try and poke holes in things that they're too afraid to talk about or explore.

You guys want to talk about rationalization.  Ok.

How about we figure out the probability that our Earth, and everything on it, was created by chance?

Any takers?

It's easy.  First you just need to figure out how much stuff is in our uniformly expanding universe (which, at it's present state is 13.7 billion light years in diamter.)  Of course, assuming that we have just the one universe.

'Cuz I think quantum physics says otherwise.  Oh yeah, that's a type of science.

Anyway, once you figure out how many things we have, you then need to figure out the most basic conditions that need to occur to support life.

Then you need to calculate the likelihood of the conditions for each "thing" in the universe to see whether or not life would be possible...

blah blah blah

and then you figure out how all those conditions just happened to appear in the Milkyway Galaxy, 93 million miles away from our sun.

How the earth was created doesn't really concern me too much.  Science has some good theories, but nothing that is fact.  Who cares.  They are always looking for answers, and it really has no effect on my life, so it doesn't bother me. 

Death doesn't bother me either. When I die, I'll rot in the ground, big whoop. Until then, I'll live my life the way I want to and the best I can.  I don't need to pretend that there is some magical meaning to life in order to live happily.  I think this is all I've got, so I'll live it the way I want to.  I kinda feel people are cheating themselves by thinking they are going to get an afterlife, and not living the way they want to.  But hey, its their decision, and I'm sure there are positive and negative effects to both sides. 

Quote
@ Konrad -

Whether or not you want to believe it, life is based on faith.  Faith that someone loves you, faith that you're confident in the skills that you have, faith that you're family is going to be there for you when you need them.  Faith that you're going to be able to have a job every day.

Even the numbers that we all hold so precious, the numbers that quantinize our "beliefs" into what we percieve as reality, are all based on faith.

The number 4 is only worth what it is because all your life, everyone has told you that, and you have never believed otherwise.
I never said faith was a bad thing, or that I didn't believe in things. 

Look, it comes down to this.  Deep down, I just don't believe there is a higher power, and I'm not going to pretend there is to make myself feel better.  I live my life accordingly.  I also have no problem with those who do, as long as they don't negatively affect others.  There are a lot of good things about religion, and I'm not naive enough to believe that my moral code isn't somewhat based on principles that come from religion. But there are bad things that come from religion too, and I dislike those parts. 

If you'll read my original post, I never said religion was bad.  I said that beatles wasn't going to convince anyone of anything using religious arguments, and that trying to change people's minds about religion is pointless, especially in a forum. 
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: jjmusicnotes on August 24, 2009, 03:13:04 am
Thanks for the reply to the post Konrad.  I know that it was a long one, and I appreciate you taking the time to exerpt quotes from it.

Thank you also for clarfying your points.  While I may not agree with some of your opinions, I respect them, and I thank you for respecting mine.

My only real intent was to prevent Beetles from being "ganged" up on.

Truth be told, I was athiest / agnostic for few years.  It's funny how things turn around though.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Sporkfire on August 24, 2009, 03:58:43 am
haha I knew someone in highschool who would use any opportunity to say/talk about atheism or bash anything religious at moments notice. Then I saw him a year later wearing a crucifix and talking about church, I was like  ???
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: WatchMyTrace on August 24, 2009, 04:20:46 am
There is only one true religion...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: kraid on August 24, 2009, 11:51:59 am
Religions were found just becourse of some reason:
1. ppl need answeres to not be afraid of the unknown
2. they need explainations for things they don't understand
3. they wanna have a meaning
4. they want to belive in something
5. they want to have solace when going through hard times
6. they don't like the idea, their existence might end with dead
etc.

It doesn't really matter what they belive, but everyone belives in something.

So far so good, now there comes the sad part.

Some ppl who are aware of this needs, have found religions.
They give you exactly what you need (see 1-6), but in most cases they do it for their own benifits.

They got might, influence and are shaping the world like they want it.
By formulating laws & rituals, they achive control over these ppl.
They determine the standarts of moral, they tell us what's right and what's wrong.

Partially this isn't a bad idea at all, otherwise we might still slaughter each other without any reason. That way we got at least a reason, even if it's foolish.

In fact there has been so much cruelty in the name of religion, since they were found, so many slaughtering, war, crime, abuse etc. and all of it in the name of god(s).

But what's the alternate?
If we didn't belive in something we might come to the conclusion that we're only deers, tiny creatures on a giant dirtball flying with enourmouse speed through the void. Deers that are to dumb to handle their intelligence the right way, instead of using it to harm each other.
An unhappy acident, a joke of the universe.

Do we really want to belive in this, when the other explainations sound much more plesent to us?

At the end it's on us to give our lives a meaning, a purpose. Everyone should find his/her answeres for him-/herself.

Ofc. it's much easier to rely on things which have been dictated by others, but finding your own answeres is much more satisfying.

Use the religions/sience/ your imagination on your own and you'll see it's not that hard as you might have thought before.

For the Bilble, it's an interresting book, but it was written and assembled by humans. Someone decided which writings will be included and which will not.

There's a lot of history in it, but also legends and myths.
The ppl at this time told the Stories of things that happened to others for centuries, they altered it added things to make it more interresting.

As for me, i belive the one Person refered as Jesus, was not one Man, it's more a collection of true stories which were altered to make them more interresting, combined with the need of a 'hero'.

As for God, i don't belive in a superior beeing which is described by many religions.
This is beeing caused by the need of ppl to have some kind of ueberfather figure.

------ I belive ---------

... it's the universe itself, which is searching for a meaning and does this by creating live.

... there's something remaining after we died, not really a messurable energy or a soul, coz what we describe that way, is just the reflection of a small pice of the whole thing.

And even our universe isn't the allmighty thing, it's just one out of a huge ammount, to big to be ever counted.

All these universes might be the smallest pices of another existing layer.
The whole live cycle of our universes, which i think are alternate realities, might be just a splitsecond out of the view of the next layer. A little flash to small to be ever found.

Our whole collection of alternate realities might be just one dustparticle in this Layer.
The universe we know, created by what we call the Big-Bang, is only one pulsating which will repeat itself over and over again, and always ends in a big crash which causes the next Bang.

Next time we might have the whole cycle of another of these alternate realities, but there surely will be one which exactly repeates the cycle we are running through now.

Anyway, we'll never find out the whole true, and if someone could, he/she would instantly go insane coz of the unbelivability of it.

Maybe it's also wrong to take it as a fact that there is the 'one and only' true.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 24, 2009, 12:26:41 pm
I am an engineer and an Atheist. 100% believe in evolution and Big-Bang or similar theory.

Being an engineer has nothing to do with anything.

Evolution can't explain how we have something instead of nothing to begin with. Neither does the Big Bang theory. If you were to honestly look at the Big Bang theory, the only rational explanation at this point is a creator independent of the creation (as I was saying in my other post, with the whole rewinding the point of origin back into infinity).

...most of your "arguments" require a belief that a god exists to begin with in order to be true, so they aren't convincing to someone who doesn't believe that.

And any "argument" against God requires a belief that the universe is eternal (something that cannot be true according to science) or a belief that nothing makes everything (also against science and reason). Given what has been set before us so far, not believing in a creator is much more scientifically illogical than believing in a creator.

“Essentially, I realized that to stay an atheist, I would have to believe that nothing produces everything; non-life produces life; randomness produces fine-tuning; chaos produces information; unconsciousness produces consciousness; and non-reason produces reason. Those leaps of faith were simply too big for me to take, especially in light of the affirmative case for God's existence … In other words, in my assessment the Christian worldview accounted for the totality of the evidence much better than the atheistic worldview.”

There is also no rational reason that your version of a god is any more real than any other religion.

My rationale behind the Judeo-Christian God being the true God is that He is the perfect fit for what all sound philosophy and science has shown us so far. Based on what we know of the universe and our selves, His revelation to us has shown to be the most consistent and persuasive. He is the most well documented and consistent God.

...most of your reasoning comes down to: God is real because the bible says so.  The bible is true because god wrote it.

No, my reasoning comes down to this:
- Based on what we know of the nature of the universe, a creator must exist.
- The Judeo-Christian Scripture is the most profound, consistent, and complete revelation of a creator.

In science, when something is unknown, Scientists try to find out what it is.  They are constantly looking for answers, and theories are constantly being tested to see if they are true or not.  If new information is discovered that contradicts a theory, the theory is thrown away and they try to find out the answer again.

With religion, when something is unknown, religion makes it up.  If new information comes to light, religious doctrine rarely changes to reflect that new information.  Not only does this result in incorrect information, but it stops people from looking for the real answers.

As if a prerequisite for science is atheism? The theistic scientist doesn't dismiss evidence. He isn't against learning. The only difference is that he knows there is a creator, and looks at everything as a way to better understand the mind of the creator. And there has been nothing found to warrant change of scripture. God's revelation is complete. He has shown everything that the human spirit NEEDS to know. That in no way means that we should stop studying the universe. Again, as science stands now, a creator is STILL the only logical conclusion as to how our existence came about.

Some religious people think they have all the answers act act negatively towards others because of this.  One example would be in the other thread and Beatles intolerance of Islam.  I saw that thread and just ignored it even though his beliefs didn't reflect mine, but Beatles had to post a long post bashing his religion.  Other examples would be when people blindly follow religious doctrine and it negatively affects others.

There is a difference between the true religion, and the false religions. I know you don't understand this. But spreading pain and ill-will in His name is not something we are taught. I wasn't "bashing" Islam, I wasn't intentionally trying to hurt osaeed. I was simply presenting arguments against Islam from the Judeo-Christian perspective. If osaeed is a faithful muslim, then he should be studying the Judeo-Christian Scriptures anyway. We believe that Islam is built from the misunderstanding of those scriptures. All I wanted to do was have a discussion on why Islam is, or is not, true.

Also, the true faith comes with no negative effects, at least ultimately. Again, you can't understand this because of what is in your heart and because you have no desire to find out otherwise.

People want excuses not to beleive, and they'll twist anything to fit that want. The spiritual darkness of a human seeks out anything it can find as ammunition against God. They see what they want to see, that they may believe what they want to believe. This is why simply reading Scripture is not enough. There are atheists who have read all of the Scripture, but only in hopes of finding proof that it can't be real. They have no hope of seeing it for what it is. Their heart is not open to the truth. They are spiritually blind, and by choice.

I kinda feel people are cheating themselves by thinking they are going to get an afterlife, and not living the way they want to.

This makes no sense. We are not oppressed. Are you murderer? Are you a liar? Are you obsessed with sexual immorality? Do you love destroying your body? Do you hate all that is good and pure? That's all we are "cheating ourselves" out of; darkness and emptiness.

I can't "prove" God to you, and I'm not trying to do that. You are missing a huge point. If your CHOOSE to be utterly defiant toward God, there's nothing that can MAKE you believe. It's impossible for an atheist to understand the true concept of God, because they intentionally fight against him. And it is hard to try and explain this to them. It's like trying to explain what blue is to someone who was born blind. It's like trying to plant a crop where there is no "ground". They want nothing to do with Him. And this is where all the doubt and confusion concerning Him comes from. It is your choice. If you just open your hearts to Him, He will show you how He is real. No matter what you think, deep in your hearts you know that He must exist.

He has said that there is absolutely no excuse for not believing in Him. Look at all that is in the universe. Look at it's power and glory. Look at the human spirit. Think about how profound thoughts and feelings are. Think of all the complexities. Think of all the diversity that is held in unity. Ponder the very essence of this existence. The proof has always been right in front of you, the problem is that you willingly close your eyes to it and deafen your spirit. Ultimately you are trying to be your own god. You want the glory. You want the power. You want the throne. And this has eternal consequences.

Is the only thing you are concerned with is your own earthly desires and pleasure? Do you really beleive that that's all there is? Don't you realize the emptiness in your human-centric views?

By the way, I use to be an atheist/agnostic up until about a year and a half ago. I'll go more into my personal story at a later time, perhaps.

For those atheists/agnostics, may I suggest using this site for some of your questions? http://www.gotquestions.org/

Perhaps it will stir up curiosity within you that will lead you to Him.

Try to read Scripture with an open heart, do research on religion and the universe from every place (not just places that are biased one way or the other). Just TRY. Ask the questions that matter. The BIG questions.

I hope this isn't appearing as a condescending or anything. I'm probably far from the best person to be preaching. My life so far isn't a good example of the Christian life. I've only accepted Him recently, and am not very wise in these matters. All I'm sure of is that He exists, and that Jesus was indeed Him in flesh whose purpose was to save us.

This topic is for each of us to talk about our beliefs, and perhaps respond to others beliefs within the context of our own.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: PPK on August 24, 2009, 12:56:00 pm
There is only one true religion...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Dude, seriously, that was uncalled for.

I do believe in a God, but I have a particular view, maybe someone shares the same opinion with me. More on this later.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Konrad Beerbaum on August 24, 2009, 04:28:38 pm
Let me just say that I was raised as a catholic for 15 years, went to catholic schools from grades 1-12, and was baptized and confirmed.  I have plenty of knowledge and experience with religion.  I just eventually realized it was too much like santa claus. 
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Kinky on August 24, 2009, 05:32:12 pm
Im sorry JessEH.... im no expert on religion but any Christian will tell you the world is somewhere around 3,000 years old. This as we know is completely ridiculous as the earth can be carbon dated to 18.7 billion years i think. Surely this is enough?

(Disclaimer: I do not wish to cause harm with my views but as an athiest i am pretty much abliged to find any concept of religion illogical. Nothing personal :P)

*EDIT : Sorry i actually only just read your last post. Imma be quick before i explode and destroy the universe in a blind rage but this...

Quote
the true faith comes with no negative effects

...is pure madness. Your a christian, and a western christian by the seems of things. Have you heard of the crusades? .... and if you think that wasnt ultimately evil then you really are quite blind.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Jeron [SharpSh00tah] on August 24, 2009, 06:01:37 pm
I just eventually realized it was too much like santa claus.

QFT
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: WatchMyTrace on August 24, 2009, 06:04:50 pm
This topic has gotten way out of hand, discussing these matters in this setting is just asking for trouble.  Many people have many diffferent beliefs that is simply the nature of things noone should try to influence anyone else, this includes parents, these things need to be discovered on a personal level and honed through experience of life only then will your beliefs truely be your own and have true value to yourself.  I'm sure many people here who follow an actual religion do so because thats what theve been told there entire childhood, which is when we are the most succeptable to influence,  but if you were to have started with a cleen slate free from outside influence would it have still found you? maybe, maybe not,. But thats left for you to find out to look at the world as it is laid out before your eyes to look with awe and amazement at how precious it is to even exist to seek answers, discouver personal truths, or do nothing at all. That is the essence of the human spirit and the essence of true freedom.


To PPK- Are you denouncing the Pastafarians?? epox on thee! may your pasta forever be crunchy or overcooked, may his holy noodleyness forever rain meatballs on thouest parade, THOU SHALL'T NEVER BE AL DENTE AGAIN!!!!   
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 24, 2009, 08:09:40 pm
Im sorry JessEH.... im no expert on religion but any Christian will tell you the world is somewhere around 3,000 years old. This as we know is completely ridiculous as the earth can be carbon dated to 18.7 billion years i think. Surely this is enough?

No, they would tell you around 6,000. Those who hold the Young Earth view, anyway.

Do you know anything about radiometric dating methods? Have you done any research at all? There are indeed problems with these methods. It itself is based upon assumptions.

You are clearly not one learned in any science, nor have you done any of the most basic research. Yet you still believe these things to be true? Why? What reason have you? How are you any different from those you call illogical?

Have you heard of the crusades? .... and if you think that wasnt ultimately evil then you really are quite blind.

The Crusades were indeed evil. Those were not Christians. They merely put on a Christian tag in attempt to justify their own wicked desires. Do you think everyone who claims to be with Christ is actually with Christ? If so, "then you really are quite blind."

Again, please open your heart and try to find the answers for yourself. Don't get caught in the snare of only accepting what agrees with you. For it is in our nature to fight against Him. You will trade truths for lies, because the lies agree with the wickedness of the heart. You must overcome this. You must want the truth, no matter what. Seek Him with all your heart, and He will be found by you.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: jjmusicnotes on August 24, 2009, 08:43:16 pm
@ Kinky - The Universe is 13.7 billion years old.  The Earth is 4.54 billion years old.  Close, but thanks for playing. :D

To an extent, Watch is correct about this thread getting out of hand.  In his original post, JessEH (The Beatles pwn j00!) cited that he was interested in what everyone else here believed in, not that he wanted to debate people over their opinions.

Unfortunately, this is usually the case because religion, faith, and greater meaning are all such a personal and integral part of our entire perception of life.

I think that a discussion of belief is healthy, in that people do not try and force their opinions on one another.

I think this because I also think that having as many points of view as possible for determining reasonable concepts is very important, and that we can all benefit from one another's view points.

There are really only 2 issues I have with religion.

I have a quick question, so, is it religion that you have a beef with, or is it the concept of God?

Also @ Konrad - It's quite uncanny how similiar this aspect of our lives has been.

I'd also like to point out that I'm Christian, and that I'm not personally condemning you all to hell for not agreeing with me.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 24, 2009, 09:14:23 pm
I'd also like to point out that I'm Christian, and that I'm not personally condemning you all to hell for not agreeing with me.

I hope you are not implying that I am condemning people to Hell, or that I am acting like raging lunatic. I'm being calm and reasonable. I don't see this getting out of hand.

Perhaps "discussion" was the wrong word. What I had in mind was a debate of sorts. I don't want us to only list our beliefs, I also want us to explain and defend them the best we can. I think that would be more beneficial.

Also, one doesn't need to come and debate in this topic if they don't want to. If it's too much for them, they can just ignore it.

But if you feel that this thread should be locked, by all means lock it. I understand.

Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Konrad Beerbaum on August 25, 2009, 01:36:58 am
I have a quick question, so, is it religion that you have a beef with, or is it the concept of God?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'beef'.  I have a problem with some aspects and consequences of religion, but not religion in general.  To be fair, much of the time it is the people themselves who are the problem, and would probably cause similar issues with or without religion.  But religion can also encourage some of this behavior as well. I don't buy into the concept of god, but I don't have a problem with people who do. 

There have been several comments in this thread about scientific theories requiring belief as well.  Essentially, anything you don't experience yourself requires belief.  However to me there is a difference between religious belief and believing in the scientific process.  The scientific process is completely transparent and peer reviewed.  In school we learn how the scientific process works, and experience it on a small scale. Scientific theories are rigorously tested with the best possible information at the time, are peer reviewed by thousands of people, and theories are thrown out or changed based on new information.  So I have faith in scientific theories because even though I haven't studied a specific theory myself, thousands of other people have and came up with the best possible answer they could, and so I can be reasonably certain it is good information.  The same process does not apply to religious doctrine, and so it must be taken on BLIND faith, which is the key word.  It is the difference between an educated guess and wild speculation. 
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Rodney 1.666 on August 25, 2009, 01:43:22 am
There is only one true religion...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

Win.

But if you feel that this thread should be locked, by all means lock it. I understand.

As long as no one builds us a trollercoaster, I see nothing wrong with "discussion."
However, those who are thinking to themselves that they may be swaying others should keep in mind that these topics never, ever reach any sort of conclusion, and can waste a lot of one's time as nothing anyone says will ever persuade anyone else.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: jjmusicnotes on August 25, 2009, 03:53:09 am
Tru dat, most of the time it's hard enough just to get people to not threaten to beat eachother up.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'beef'.


Haha, sorry, slang term I guess. :P  Yes, I meant "have a problem with."

However to me there is a difference between religious belief and believing in the scientific process.  The scientific process is completely transparent and peer reviewed.  In school we learn how the scientific process works, and experience it on a small scale. Scientific theories are rigorously tested with the best possible information at the time, are peer reviewed by thousands of people, and theories are thrown out or changed based on new information.  So I have faith in scientific theories because even though I haven't studied a specific theory myself, thousands of other people have and came up with the best possible answer they could, and so I can be reasonably certain it is good information.  The same process does not apply to religious doctrine, and so it must be taken on BLIND faith, which is the key word.  It is the difference between an educated guess and wild speculation. 

I think I get what you're saying - that you find it much more logical and reasonable to trust / believe things backed by empirical data; something which is tangible.

I also think that there are some aspects of religious faith that MUST be taken blindly.  I mean, after all, that's part of the reason why it's called faith, and not stuff that we already know.

That being said, I think it's also important not to disallow the fact that there have been / are scholars that are continously analyzing church doctrine, the holy books, and researching to work out the most correct interpretation to the best of their knowledge.

They may not have numbers and tangible instruments for measuring data, but they do have criteria for a certain standard of morality.

One could make the argument I suppose that mechanical instruments are impartial and not subject to perceptual bias.

One could also reply that there is a reason why we don't use those instruments when we share our feelings with one another, where the squishiness of our consciousness cannot be measured in Mg or kJ.

**side note**

Okay, so technically, our thoughts have a mass that can be measured.  But I think you get my point.

**end side note**

I think that that is one of the reasons why religion / faith / God is such a gray area for everyone - in that it's all conceptual, yet it seems to demand so much from our tangible world.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Sole Signal [Audix] on August 28, 2009, 04:07:27 pm
I'm a Christian young earth creationist. There's too many problems with the evolutionary camp (constantly changing their dates and theories-- apparently the appendix isn't a vestigial organ anymore) (http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090824/sc_livescience/theappendixusefulandinfactpromising) and it requires much more faith to believe IMO.

I find these debates fascinating, as long as they don't degenerate into a "what's wrong with you" flamefest. Everything one believes about the origins of the earth is framed by an initial mindset. Try the creationist view just for kicks and you'll see that it makes a good deal of sense.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: VC on August 28, 2009, 04:50:10 pm
The holy trinity is a Mathematician, a Physicist, and an Engineer.

The Mathematician set the rules for the universe.  The Physicist determined the materials that would be availiable.  The Engineer figured out how to make that material turn itself into stars, beer, and paper airplanes.

It's really that simple.  Anything else is antrhopocentric idealism and crowd control measures.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: WatchMyTrace on August 28, 2009, 04:56:56 pm
I'm a Christian young earth creationist. There's too many problems with the evolutionary camp (constantly changing their dates and theories-- apparently the appendix isn't a vestigial organ anymore) (http://news.yahoo.com/s/livescience/20090824/sc_livescience/theappendixusefulandinfactpromising) and it requires much more faith to believe IMO.

So what your saying is that when a new discovery is made and a textbook is changed that makes the entire science invalid? That's what science is, it's new discoveries and progression into our understanding of the world around us.
 
Evolution is based on science which is constantly being updated as new discoveries are made. For example the age of the universe was largly based on theory until the hubble telescope was made which can now see objects as far back as 13 billion light years: see Hubble Ultra Deep Field http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra_Deep_Field (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubble_Ultra_Deep_Field) The farthest image ever taken. 

Once a new and better telescope is made the date could get pushed back farther by witnessing what is known as the dark age (a time shortly after the big bang when no stars existed and thus no light existed) This would absolutely confirm the age of the universe.

Now you tell me which takes more faith, If i all i look at is a old text book that says there is no cure for polio should i never look at a newer one and just keep believing that none exists?

Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: kraid on August 28, 2009, 05:16:35 pm
Religions got a huge problem with saying: sorry we were wrong. Sience is willing to give up a theory if it proofs wrong.

Examples:
Earth is not a disk surrounded by water and carried by a giant (atlas) riding a turtle.
Earth is not the center of our solar system.
If there would have been only adam & eve, humanity wouldn't have last longer then 3 or 4 generations till the effects caused by incest ...well i think you got the point.
Beside that everyone would be brother & sister. Wasn't incest also forbidden by the bible?

The problem is, the bible was written by ppl who didn't know anything about our solar system/universe or genetic.
Now that we found out the true about this, it's a difficult situation for them, coz it's not a far trip from seeing that so many things they tell us are wrong, till questioning the whole belive.

The reactions on this are very different, some ppl even deny these things completly while others use the slightest missmatch to argue against it.
Another tactic is to relocate the belives into areas sience wasn't able to fully explain yet.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 28, 2009, 06:19:45 pm
Examples:
Earth is not a disk surrounded by water and carried by a giant (atlas) riding a turtle.
Earth is not the center of our solar system.

I hope you aren't claiming that either of these things are ever said in the Judeo-Christian Scripture, because nothing of this sort is ever said.

If there would have been only adam & eve, humanity wouldn't have last longer then 3 or 4 generations till the effects caused by incest ...well i think you got the point.
Beside that everyone would be brother & sister. Wasn't incest also forbidden by the bible?

Incest was necessary in the beginning for obvious reasons. A short time later it was condemned by God. And this would be evident from the consequences this act NOW carries. As for everyone now being brother and sister... spiritually, yes. Genetically, no.

The problem is, the bible was written by ppl who didn't know anything about our solar system/universe or genetic.
Now that we found out the true about this, it's a difficult situation for them, coz it's not a far trip from seeing that so many things they tell us are wrong, till questioning the whole belive.

Nothing in Scripture directly contradicts scientific facts.

If you think otherwise, give some examples. Quote it from the Holy Bible directly. And don't just SKIM through it to find something you THINK is contradictory. You'll only end up taking it out of context, therefore misinterpreting it, and therefore misunderstanding it.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 28, 2009, 06:31:43 pm
Here is something that some may find interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dt9zY9ZqJ-k

It's an interview with a young child prodigy (born into an atheist family) who claims her inspirations are from God.

The poetry she rights to accompany her artwork is equally stunning. You can see and read her work on her site.

http://www.akiane.com/home.html
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: VC on August 28, 2009, 06:45:56 pm
The Word cannot change because it is perfect and comes from God.  (Unless you are King James.)
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Kratos on August 28, 2009, 07:06:02 pm
(Unless you are King James.)

Unless your Chuck Norris
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 28, 2009, 07:06:31 pm
"Since the KJV was translated in A.D. 1611, many Biblical manuscripts have been discovered that are older and more accurate than the manuscripts the KJV was based on. When Bible scholars researched through these manuscripts, they discovered some differences. It seems that over the course of 1500 years, some words, phrases, and even sentences were added to the Bible (either intentionally or accidentally). The verses mentioned above are simply not found in the oldest and most reliable manuscripts. So, the newer translations remove these verses or place them in footnotes or in the margin because they do not truly belong in the Bible.

It is important to remember, however, that the verses in question are of minor significance. None of them change in any way the crucial themes of the Bible, nor do they have any impact on the Bible’s doctrines—Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection, Christ as the only the way of salvation, heaven and hell, sin and redemption, and the nature and character of God. These are preserved intact through the work of the Holy Spirit, who safeguards the Word of God for all generations."
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: WatchMyTrace on August 28, 2009, 07:30:05 pm
OK this topic needs to be locked and sent to the seventh level of hell before it gets out of hand, because if i start heaing anything about "scientific creationism" i'm going to start loosing my shit.

Incorrect. You need to stop reading this thread while everyone else behaves themselves.
--VC.


Your right, i'm officialy outing myself from this conversation immediatly, but i'm telling you that ive seen similar topics started in other forums and it always leads to disaster.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Konrad Beerbaum on August 28, 2009, 08:02:53 pm

Nothing in Scripture directly contradicts scientific facts.

If you think otherwise, give some examples. Quote it from the Holy Bible directly. And don't just SKIM through it to find something you THINK is contradictory. You'll only end up taking it out of context, therefore misinterpreting it, and therefore misunderstanding it.


Um, miracles?  The whole point of a miracle is that it violates natural laws.  The resurrection being the most obvious example.  Feel free to believe in it, but don't try to claim that it doesn't violate natural laws.  The whole reason it was such a significant event was because it contradicts scientific fact. 
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 28, 2009, 08:22:05 pm
Well of course. But the point I was making was that it doesn't claim anything like "the earth is flat, DNA doesn't exist, and you can breathe on the moon".

Of course God has shown His wrath, glory, and love through supernatural means, for He is no way limited by His creation. All I was saying is that His Word does not contradict what we now know of the creation through science.

And if you think otherwise, give examples and explain how it contradicts.

And macro-evolution has not and can not truly be proven. There are indeed holes in it. I'm guessing that is main thing you are going to bring up? That and radiometric dating?

Even if those theories could be "proven", there is still the impassible problem of the birth of the universe itself. Our equations go so far, then break down into nonsense. But that isn't even the point.

Why don't we have nothing? What is this inexplicable thing, our being? It has no choice but to have a mindful and deliberate purpose.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: jjmusicnotes on August 28, 2009, 09:48:20 pm
The Word cannot change because it is perfect and comes from God.  (Unless you are King James.)

"The Word" referring to God's message, and by "message," I mean concepts of morality that we believe in and do our best to illustrate throughout our lives.

Just so that we all don't get confused.

The holy trinity is a Mathematician, a Physicist, and an Engineer.

The Mathematician set the rules for the universe.  The Physicist determined the materials that would be available.  The Engineer figured out how to make that material turn itself into stars, beer, and paper airplanes.

It's really that simple.  Anything else is anthropocentric idealism and crowd control measures.

That's cute.

I'm going to assume that you're agnostic / atheist, even though your response could be construed as religious.

In that frame of context:
 
I really don't see how anthropocentric idealism fits.  The whole point of believing in something larger than yourself is that you are subservient.  Let's not be putting our square pegs in round holes.

Religions got a huge problem with saying: sorry we were wrong. Science is willing to give up a theory if it proofs wrong.

I don't agree. 

An example:

The Catholic church saying: Whoops, sorry about tricking hundreds of thousands of people into thinking that for giving us money, we would give them a piece of paper saying that they would get into heaven.

Science is supposed to give up a theory if it's been proven wrong, that's how science works.  It's much more difficult for religion because the values that are placed on the inherent beliefs dictate the entire moral course of our lives.

I don't suppose Newton's laws of motion contribute to the moral foundation of anyone's lives?



The problem is, the bible was written by ppl who didn't know anything about our solar system/universe or genetic.


In that time period, neither were the majority of the history, science, and literature books.

That's of course only taking into consideration the people that were privileged enough to read.

Imagine how archaic our present knowledge will be in 2000 more years?  People will laugh.



After reading and thinking about the responses here, it seems as though the people here that are agnostic / atheist have an issue with religion, and not the concept of God, salvation, etc.

I think it's extremely important to make that distinction because religion was created by human beings, which I think everyone can agree, are inherently flawed.

That being said, a discussion about religion is never going to end, because of the myriad idiosyncratic anomalies that invariably lie within all religions.

I think that things would be more productive if the focus of the topic where shifted toward the concept of God, philosophy, and the relation to the human condition.



@ JessEH (The Beatles pwn j00!) -

I took an Astronomy class in college that said that we know what happened 10^-43 seconds after the universe began.

We don't know anything before that because we need a larger telescope.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: WatchMyTrace on August 28, 2009, 10:47:09 pm
OK this topic needs to be locked and sent to the seventh level of hell before it gets out of hand, because if i start heaing anything about "scientific creationism" i'm going to start loosing my shit.

Incorrect. You need to stop reading this thread while everyone else behaves themselves.
--VC.



Your right, i'm officialy outing myself from this conversation immediatly, but i'm telling you that ive seen similar topics started in other forums and it always leads to disaster.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on August 28, 2009, 11:18:01 pm

Your right, i'm officialy outing myself from this conversation immediatly, but i'm telling you that ive seen similar topics started in other forums and it always leads to disaster.

Disaster? Did people die because of it? Or... what?

Yes it's bound to cause some people anger, grief, confusion, frustration, etc.. It's a very serious topic, and one that shouldn't be ignored. Let people say what they want to say. If people are acting down right ugly and unruly, moderators should step in and restore order, so that mindful discussion/debate can continue. If the topic makes you uncomfortable just take a break, or just forget it exists.

Speaking of which, I'm gonna ignore this topic for a few days. I'm winded.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: monkeyface on August 29, 2009, 10:33:27 am
http://www.akiane.com/home.html

How scary, and kitsch. The Mormons got some serious competition in the art department.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: kraid on August 29, 2009, 11:24:10 am
Ok, for the "Earth is not a disk surrounded by water and carried by a giant (atlas) riding a turtle." i think i Mixed up a few of those theories.

But the catholic church pretended the earth is flat and at the center of our system and the whole rest is spinning arround it even centuries after they were proofed wrong.

I think it was the last pope who finally accepted these facts as true.

Now you come and say the whole evolution theory is wrong coz there are a few things that cannot be proofed yet?

It's like saying: there is no wall because a few little stones are missing. Good luck with running through there, may your headache be enlightening.

Quote
Incest was necessary in the beginning for obvious reasons. A short time later it was condemned by God. And this would be evident from the consequences this act NOW carries. As for everyone now being brother and sister... spiritually, yes. Genetically, no.
*facepalm*
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: VC on August 29, 2009, 02:38:54 pm
*facepalm*

This.   That quote brought me my first lol of the day.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Rodney 1.666 on August 29, 2009, 05:01:24 pm
Amused, but still need my daily lols.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Wake[of]theBunT on August 29, 2009, 08:28:10 pm
Science is faith yes, but imo KM explained it best why its faith is worth so much more to the thinking brain and the world we exist in. There is no flaw that is allowed to continue being believed.

science has about a trillian answers more than any other religion ; Thats why its taught in schools. This thought should convince any religious person that evolution IS the only explanation for how we came to be, but no? they gotta be douche bags and be all like "hey we can all believe what we want even if it crazily conflicts with a more comprehensive body of concept to how we are here, because afterall god makes me feel good, science doesnt even make me smile"

Thats why i believe that religious folk allow themselves to become stupid at the reward of contentment. They arent stupid at birth, evolution gave them a brain as anyone else that can function, and then they strayed off the logic path (probly because of traumatic stuff etc) to where they "need" faith in some special being to get them through life.

In my honest fucking opinion, listen to george carlins views on religion.

1. because they will entertain you
2. because you will be like..."true, sounds about right to me"
3. they arent words for or against the idea of religion, just logic counterthoughts to what religion tries to say
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Rodney 1.666 on August 29, 2009, 10:31:39 pm
In my honest fucking opinion, listen to george carlins views on religion.

1. because they will entertain you
2. because you will be like..."true, sounds about right to me"
3. they arent words for or against the idea of religion, just logic counterthoughts to what religion tries to say

This.  +1

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o).  Favorite it.
Uncalled for? Possibly, but I don't believe so.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Jeron [SharpSh00tah] on August 29, 2009, 10:41:19 pm
Thats why i believe that religious folk allow themselves to become stupid at the reward of contentment. They arent stupid at birth, evolution gave them a brain as anyone else that can function, and then they strayed off the logic path (probly because of traumatic stuff etc) to where they "need" faith in some special being to get them through life.


This is so true. People want to believe their religion so much at the sacrifice of logic...

I have my own view on heaven and hell. I believe that the bible is a GREAT way to live and model your life after, and upon doing such you are in a state of a mental heaven.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: 1Rusky on August 30, 2009, 12:21:53 am

Incest was necessary in the beginning for obvious reasons. A short time later it was condemned by God. And this would be evident from the consequences this act NOW carries. As for everyone now being brother and sister... spiritually, yes. Genetically, no.




I hope noone thinks all Christians believe this, because that's just retarded. Glad we could type responses without someone calling religious people douchebags or stupid, and we're the ones who get called intolerant, good job. This topic should be closed/deleted, people get pissed when others try to disprove something personal to them. Plain and simple. I only answered in this thread because I feel it's important to stick up for your faith rather than fall in line with the "religious people are intolerant,racist,crazies" that the world is now plagued with or simply hide that many young people do today.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: WatchMyTrace on August 30, 2009, 01:29:40 am
Disaster? Did people die because of it? Or... what?

Yes it's bound to cause some people anger, grief, confusion, frustration, etc.. It's a very serious topic, and one that shouldn't be ignored. Let people say what they want to say. If people are acting down right ugly and unruly, moderators should step in and restore order, so that mindful discussion/debate can continue. If the topic makes you uncomfortable just take a break, or just forget it exists.

Speaking of which, I'm gonna ignore this topic for a few days. I'm winded.

There is no possible conclusion to draw for this debate it's going on for centuries.  I could sit here and literally post thousands of scientific facts to back up my beliefs and you could do the same by quoting every scripture in the book or discussing intangible spiritual properties that have no rebuttal.  There will forever be two sides to this discussion and trying to convince someone in either camp to come over to your side is futile,  if someone has ever converted there belief system because of a internet forum discussion let me know.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Rodney 1.666 on August 30, 2009, 02:33:55 am
There is no possible conclusion to draw for this debate it's going on for centuries.  I could sit here and literally post thousands of scientific facts to back up my beliefs and you could do the same by quoting every scripture in the book or discussing intangible spiritual properties that have no rebuttal.  There will forever be two sides to this discussion and trying to convince someone in either camp to come over to your side is futile,

QFT

Extension of what I said earlier.
Course it's only a "disaster" when the flames start a flying.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: killermonkey on August 30, 2009, 05:03:49 am
OK, no need to throw around the ol' Douche-Bag comments. That is like opening up the flame throwing. We can all just pretend that post was never written.

However, he did mention my moniker and I would like to explain my first post which I reluctantly didn't after being baited to by Beatles on page 2 (i believe).

I think being an engineer, a serious scientist, and any other very physically minded profession is very relevant to the religious debate. There are definitely many religious engineers and scientists out there, but I think their believe in religion is VERY different then non-engineers/scientists.

I am an Electrical Engineer, a major that is barely over 100 years old, yet has ballooned into one of the most influential fields on earth today. Topics ranging from radio waves all the way to circuitry and control theory (my field) all give a piece to describing, mathematically and analytically, a lot of the "magic" things that happen on this planet and around the solar system and universe. It is almost impossible for me to accept the fact that there is an "intelligent designer" somewhere or a "great overseer", believe me I have tried. I have read a large majority of the bible as a child, (which by the way was NOT written by God, at least the New Testament, which is accounts from Jesus' disciples...), I went to Sunday school and even tried to believe, but there was always this nagging notion in the back of my mind that none of this really matters.

I am a huge fan of the medieval times because that is the time in human history when religion and the believe that all things that happened were tied to God, etc. We now look back on that time and realize how stupid those people were. The plague, for example, Which burnings, the inquisition, I can go on. Will our descendents look back on us in a thousand years and say the same thing? ABSOLUTELY. This is because the more we find out about WHY things happen in this world and around us, the LESS we need to rely on explaining it away with some "higher power".

This all ties into my Engineer comment because as an engineer I am constantly trying to discover why things work, understand the interactions in this world, and create new and exciting technologies with those understandings. I really have no room to rely on some unknown power to do things for me or guide me because it doesn't help my life whatsoever.

I am not being rude or whatever, I am just supporting my previous one sentence description.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 12:42:41 pm
The unsaved are so bent on clinging to this life. They think reality only consists of what we can experience with our senses. They are only concerned with the here and now. Everything is mechanical and soulless to them. Meaningless. But it is only human. Our hearts are desperately wicked. Yet the Lord makes himself known in so many ways, that we might use our free will to turn from our sick nature and know him.

Many delude themselves to think they are basically good and happy, and that they have no need for God. But this is a lie. It's a facade. And you know it deep inside. You try to run from the pain. Hide it. Bury it. But it is always there. And only the Lord Jesus Christ can heal that pain. We even try to convince ourselves that the sickness in us is actually good. We feed the confusion. This world loves confusion. It IS confusion for those who hate the Lord. We make the hole bigger and bigger, running from the light. Some make it so big that they fall in. Like your friend Nickster. But even if the hole is small, you will still be thrown into the fire when you die. For God, in all his glorious perfection, cannot allow even the smallest hole in his presence. He has given you the remedy, and he has made it clear. You can't realize it with your small finite logic, but only with your eternal heart. Your true self.

The point is for us to choose either this world, or God and his perfect world to come. And the way he has set this up is flawless. We must choose him by faith. And when you do, you WILL know it, and you WILL see him in the world to come.

And what's all this about believers being stupid or inferior? You have no reason to say this, besides the sickness in your heart. You curse and hate, and you glory in it. Has embracing your darkness made you so smart, Sharp? Mac? Then show me how smart you are. Show me what good darkness has done for you. All I see is hate and arrogance.

In the couple years since I have sincerely accepted the Lord, I am slowly but surely changing. I have become aware of how detestable I once was (and still am). I have given up smoking cigarettes (it's been five months now). My thought life is becoming noble. Things that were once hazy are now becoming clear. What I feel is profound.

You need to keep your heart open. I too "tried" and "wanted" to believe as a child, but ended up thinking along the lines you guys are. The world hardened my heart, as it has yours. But any real understanding didn't start for me until recently. You've got to overcome your hardened hearts once more and see the light. Please pick up your Bible once more. And all of this is talked about IN the Bible! Ahh! It's so profound! All of these feelings you guys have, why we feel it, how we feel it, how we can overcome it, our situations, everything! True wisdom! It's all in there! So profound!

Please START with the New Testament, indeed, it all points to the Lord Jesus Christ. And how can you TRULY understand and use the wisdom in the Old Testament without first receiving the Holy Spirit?

I wish I had better words. Perhaps I will as time passes. The learning never ends.

(Rusky, why is it "retarded"? Perhaps I did say something foolish there. For we are new creations in Christ. But if you implying that believing in The Word, The Bible, is retarded then how can you claim to be Christian yet deny His Word? This is all too common, tragically. jjmusicnotes has also claimed to be with Christ yet has said things that may indicate otherwise. Perhaps you are saved, but just said something foolish. That can't be helped. As I said, the learning never ends, and we are still young in the faith.)
Anyway guys, just know this. I love you all. And there is indeed a God who loves you more than you can imagine.

I wish you true love and happiness. Not the joke the world has built. Am I "stupid" for this?
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Kinky on December 02, 2009, 01:10:33 pm
There is no "darkness" in my heart.
I am happy
I choose this world
And i dont want love from "your God"

See the problem is people like you think that reading scripture and preaching to non believers is going to comfort us or make us "see the light".

Tbh mate... im somewhat insulted. If you want to believe in a higher power then thats all gravy. But dont try to tell me that my heart is hardened and that i have accepted darkness. That is pure BS and essentially you are saying that you are better than me for your beliefs. Doesnt your precious book tell you to love thy neightbour? ...then how about respecting our right to believe something different to you without cramming your beliefs down our throats.

This topic isnt going anywhere but into flames. It should be locked...
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 01:25:56 pm
So profound! This is all talked about! There's nothing I can say that Christ hasn't said better. Perfectly, rather. I'm sorry if this hurts you. Yes, the truth hurts at first. Not only are we to love our neighbor, we are to love our enemies. And I do love you. And I pray that you will one day open your heart, that we may see each other for who we truly are in the kingdom to come. You can falsely accuse me of claiming superiority, or that I'm somehow disrespecting your rights. You chose to come to this thread, yes? Or that I'm somehow in the wrong. The saved are indeed to be hated by the world. Lied about and killed for no reason but speaking righteousness. This is all in The Bible. Your actions fit perfectly with what God has said. Glory!

Again, if you feel that you must lock this thread, by all means lock it.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Kinky on December 02, 2009, 01:39:17 pm
I can assure you we will never "see each other for who we truly are in the kingdom to come."

You want to see me, come round my house and we can have a beer. Thats as good as its gonna get im afraid...
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: kraid on December 02, 2009, 01:39:46 pm
Honnestly, were here because we love this game, not because we want to listen to a preaching.

If you're beliving in this, good. We tolerate your belives, but don't go on with argueing
about something which you have to belive in, to accept it as true.

Noone can proof weather or not a god exists. You have to belive.

But my main problem with religion (not only christian) is not this question, it's simply i don't belive any of them has the absolute truth in it.
It's used to manipulate and control ppl, used to get might and influence, used to justify atrocities.

Most ppl follow their religion just because they were raised with it.
If you were raised in a muslime or jewish country, you would probably belive in this religion.

If you ask me, it doesn't matter what's your belive, it's more about if you're willing to belive or not.

But I don't like it when ppl try to tell me what i should belive in. I rather search answeres myself.

IMO:
Take all the world religions, merge what they have in common and you're much closer to the true as any christian, muslime, jew, w/e could be.
All this rediculess stuff like celebrating certain days, singing certain prayers etc. doesn't matter at all.

BTW: JessEH, you sound like brain washed by some ultra hardcore christians.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: jjmusicnotes on December 02, 2009, 01:46:04 pm
JesseEH -

Self-piety is not an attractive trait to had.  Just because you have decided to grow in your relationship to God does not mean that you are morally superior, or that carrying an ego about it is the right way to behave.

You talk about how their hearts are hardened by the world, when really, your heart is hardened by your self-important religious prejudice.  If you really were sincere about your relationship with Christ, you would be welcoming to everyone, and try to bring Christ into people life's with a positive, welcoming, and loving attitude.  Instead, you are shaming everyone for not doing things the same way you do, and that's wrong.

I have a very strong moral compass, and while I don't claim to have any of the answers, I know that growing in a relationship with God is something that takes time, and is not instantaneous.

I think that killermonkey's response to your post was more than adequate, and while it may be a view that you may not necessarily agree with, you can, at the very least, respect it.

That all being said, this thread has the possibility to be a very healthy thread, where we discuss our viewpoints and explore what it is that we perceive to "know" about the universe.  People only change something about themselves if they want to change, so forcing anyone to do anything isn't going to work - especially when it comes to something so personal like religion / spirituality.

In this thread, people shouldn't be apprehensive to post for fear of being attacked or scrutinized. Instead, it would be nice if there were a polite, healthy, discussion where we respect without judging.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Kinky on December 02, 2009, 02:15:39 pm
Nice to hear from someone who has faith and whose feet are still firmly on the floor...

I, and most others like me, have no problem with religion or religous people. As long as they understand that their faith is an inward journey that is for them alone. You can believe whatever you want to believe as long as it makes you happy. I only ask for the same in turn.

So go and be with God if you want. But ill be here doing something else. However, that shouldnt matter to you; if it does, then thats something wrong with you... not me
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 02:21:46 pm
:D

With each word from your fingertips my faith grows! The beauty of it all!

Lord knows I'm not trying to drive people away from him. I clearly said I am in no way superior to any of you. All that I said goes for all of us. You choose to see me as some harmful thing, just as some choose to see God as some harmful thing.

It's better to speak the hard truth. I suppose you'd rather water it down until it's comforting, but meaningless? Why would they want to change if they don't know the reality of their state, or the consequences for it? Maybe I AM going about it too hard. Again, I am young in the spirit, and the Lord is merciful.

But how many times have you tried to glorify our Lord, jj? Should I be ashamed of speaking truth, even if it's uncomfortable to some? The Lord has the power to make my rough words work in his favor. But what can he do with you and your idling? I think you are missing a big point in out faith. Then again, I might be. Either way, may the Lord be glorified, and may he forgive us our sins, and pour out ever more peace and understanding that he might be glorified all the more.

Listen, I'm done for now. I'm not forcing anything on you. I'm not talking down to you (intentionally). You choose to think that. I'd like for this topic to stay open. I for one am certainly not abusing it. How long was it since my last series of posts? And I enjoy glorifying my Lord.

I wish you peace! Bye for now.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Kinky on December 02, 2009, 02:34:07 pm
As much as that is hilarious HB

Please be mindful of their feelings. Just caus we disagree with their opinions doesnt mean its right to mock them. Although this is the internet... so i suppose it does.

Im confused :/
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 02:46:15 pm
I am a pastor's son. I can start quoting scripture condemning how Jesse is going about this. 

Sorry. I had to come back. Please, if this is true, would you do this for me?

Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Rodney 1.666 on December 02, 2009, 03:02:44 pm
Funny, I was reading through older threads and could have sworn I saw Beatles talking negatively of people who try forcing their beliefs on people or otherwise trying to change other's.
Hmm...
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 03:04:13 pm
Funny, I was reading through older threads and could have sworn I saw Beatles talking negatively of people who try forcing their beliefs on people or otherwise trying to change other's.
Hmm...

Where? When? Quote me.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 03:26:16 pm
Do you intend to stall, or produce the scripture?  If you can show me scripture that condemns my method of preaching about Christ, then do so.

What I did was:

1. Talked about the fallen state of man.
2. Talked about the consequences for staying in that state.
3. Talked about the only way to be saved from that state (Jesus Christ, God in flesh.)
4. Talked about the beauty and glory of Christ and his mercy.
5. Talked about how he has changed my life personally.
6. Encouraged you do keep your heart open and to read the Word.

If there is scripture that is against that, produce it. Yes, I'm certainly not the holiest man, and many could do better than me I suppose. The point is I tried. Do you hear me JJ? Are you a "Christian" who only focuses on His mercy and kindness? Do you not realize the importance of the other side, and how you do God a disservice by sugar coating the truth? What do you believe exactly, JJ?

Please, produce scripture showing me that I am in the wrong, that I may become more Christ-like.

Also, if you feel like you are wasting your time, please leave.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: drukqaddik on December 02, 2009, 04:21:04 pm
wow - just - wow *facepalm* video games anyone?
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 05:12:06 pm
You have produced no evidence contrary to what I have said-quid pro quo, my friend... Yet you demand things of me.
You said you could readily quote scripture to prove me wrong. I ASKED you, if it was true, to do it. I will show you now how you failed to do so.

7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

 9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall."

You, like so many, refuse to see. And because of this you misunderstand scripture, taking it out context and trying to use it for your own gain, and lead others astray. Corinthians is about Paul writing to new Christians who have been misunderstanding the doctrines and were in trouble of going astray.

These people were still accustomed to idols. The wiser Christians would realize that eating food sacrificed to idols is okay, for they know in their heart that Christ/Father/Holy Spirit is the only true God, and eating the food being sacrificed to the false gods means nothing. But Paul warns the wiser of these Christians not to eat the food sacrificed to idols if it causes the weaker of these Christians to stumble. Because the weaker Christians will think that they are to worship these idols along side Christ because the food had been sacrificed to them.

Now you know. And knowing this, how does this pertain to what is going on?

And I know Rodney was talking about you debating a Muslim about his faith on here. I'm not quoting shit. Who are you to question anyone about what they believe?   
He claimed that I said it was wrong to try and convert someone. I didn't say that. Why do you so desperately try to find fault with me? As if my flaws would discredit the Lord? Blind!

Now let me quote YOU some scripture:

Psalms 14:1
The fool says in his heart,“There is no God.”

And I know well that most will reject God, and suffer eternally for their decision. And nothing can change that. I'm sorry if some of you see me as talking down to you. I'm sorry you willingly refuse the free gift of eternal life. I know nothing. I never claimed to have all the answers, or to be some perfect thing. You force that lie onto me because you apparently hate God and all who are with him. I am nothing without Christ. All I know is that there is a God, Jesus is Christ, His Word is True, He died for me on the cross, He conquered death and was resurrected, and only through Him can we be cleansed and saved.

I'll pray for you.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: jjmusicnotes on December 02, 2009, 06:49:44 pm
With all due respect JessEH -

I am greatly disappointed that you expect me to provide a summation of my relationship with God, so that you can judge me and decide just exactly how faithful or holy I'm being.

What I do in my personal life, how I choose to interact with God, how I choose to implement His teachings in my own life is none of your business, and is CERTAINLY not up for scrutiny by another human being.

You have no right to judge me or anyone else here with your peity.

Hellbender is exactly right when he says that this thread was used to bait other members into an argument by which the only view that you care about is your own.

You say that I "sugar coat" and claim that you tell the real truth, when all you are doing is slandering others' beliefs.  I did not sugar coat, but merely incurred restraint (as a sign of respect) to the others who have written here, which, I'm sure, is also something that they are exercising with you - contrary to expressing emotions they actually want to share with you.

You said, "These people were still accustomed to idols. The wiser Christians would realize that eating food sacrificed to idols is okay,"

As far as I've understood, God does not promote idol worship of any kind...in fact, I believe that it's not only mentioned in the Bible, but in the Ten Commandments as well.

From what I have seen here, all of the other members of this forum are welcome to a nice, polite, healthy discussion about religion / spirituality.  However, you do not seem to be as forthcoming with respecting others.

You asked Hellbender to quote scriptures for you, he did so.  Out of the entire Bible, he chose as many scriptures as he thought were pertinent.  While I readily admit that I am no Bible scholar, I believe that it can be interpreted in different ways - so that by reading the same passages at different points in your life, you imbue different meanings from them.

There is no one way to understand how God interacts with your life, if there were, we would all life exactly the same life.  For a person to claim to have all of the answers is a person with a closed mind and a closed heart to God's ever evolving love.

There is only one person in all of history who had all of the answers.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 08:49:38 pm
You asked Hellbender to quote scriptures for you, he did so.  Out of the entire Bible, he chose as many scriptures as he thought were pertinent. 
He chose two paragraphs from the same chapter, which didn't have anything to do with anything. The way that you and he are talking about how wrong I am, you'd think he could find more. That's what he was seemingly implying, anyway. But no, it was a lie.

For a person to claim to have all of the answers is a person with a closed mind and a closed heart to God's ever evolving love.

There is only one person in all of history who had all of the answers.
Did you not read what I clearly said? I clearly said I do not claim to have all the answers. That I am nothing without Christ. That I indeed could be wrong on the details.

"God's ever evolving love"? What do you mean by this? If you mean what I think you mean, then you clearly don't believe the Bible to be God breathed. Are you some type of New Age Spiritualism pagan? It is these type of things you say that make me worry about you.

God is unchanging.

Malachi 3:6
I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

James 1:17
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Numbers 23:19
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

Psalm 102:27
But you remain the same, and your years will never end.

And because I say this, will you now claim that I am judging you? No, that is not my place. How would I know if you are truly saved in the end?

I just hope you are not going down some strange road. Remember that not everyone who calls him "Lord" will be saved.

But we are not saved by believing every single word of the Bible. We are saved by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And it is my conviction that if you truly have the Holy Spirit, he will show you that The Bible is God breathed and perfect. And to my knowledge, the way I've gone about this isn't ungodly. Did not Jesus Himself speak about the things I said in the way I said it? Again, I am sorry if I've come across as hard. Perhaps I am too zealous. If you remember anything about me, remember this: I am nothing without Christ.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: drukqaddik on December 02, 2009, 09:24:46 pm
so the purpose of this thread is to make ppl angry?
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on December 02, 2009, 09:40:01 pm
You choose to have unrighteous anger fill your heart.

And don't get me started on Catholicism.

My "box" isn't as "tiny" as you may think.

I'd gladly die for Christ. I'd be willing to be tortured for a million years. Because those million years will end, but my reward will never end.

If nothing else, think of this. If I'm wrong, nothing (according to the majority of atheists, agnostics, the Godless). If you're wrong... oh man. But of course that is the wrong way to look at it. But if that is the last option, perhaps that will grow into something real.

Anyway guys, remember that I'm not taking this discussion out of this thread. I did once for the Ramadan thread, and that was a mistake. Hopefully, even if you hate my guts, you can tolerate me on here. If not, no problem. Ban away.

But I am done talking for now. So I guess you can rest (even though it is totally your choice to come to this thread in the first place... if it makes you so angry, why do that? Again, the human heart is desperately wicked and glories in such things.)

Love. Bye for now. Please know that I wish you the best.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Kinky on December 02, 2009, 10:01:48 pm
If we are wrong we'll burn in hell

If you're wrong then youve wasted your life

Is stick by my decision

Im going to lock this because its getting dangerous.. If anyone wants it unlocked then PM me a compelling reason.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: Wake[of]theBunT on December 03, 2009, 08:43:27 am
This is a horrific let down. Some posts were actually made by smart people, and the select people arguing with stupidity came to the fore.

So, on this forum my word is your god, im going to lay out some ground rules for future behaviour.

The christian contingent here is the most in the wrong, so im going to address that situation most, but this applies to everyone.

A christian in civilized society that argues their points relentlessly against non-believers is just insanity actually. No one EVER said you cant believe what you want in your own head. But thats where it should stay if you are going to be rediculous and seek to belittle people. It makes no sense to any logic, and the bible doesn't in any way allow or suggest partaking in that behaviour, either. Without question you would be considered evil and immoral and being clouded by satan. A preacher does the act of preaching to people who are allowing themselves to be in the prescence of his preaching. It is a place where others dont have to be witness,  and he does his preaching with compassion and respect for everyone, even those who dont believe in his religion, otherwise they are a terrible preacher.

If people in this thread who profess christianity (or any religion), truly are, they would not act this way. Arguing (even if you believe strongly in your point) is in no way referenced as a tool for religion to use against other human beings. No athiest has EVER instigated a non-confrontational christian (or other) because if you weren't in our face we would not need to defend OUR beliefs in nothing, in-turn.

The next person to disgrace the board like this, and display ANY belief or words that outwardly speaks to belittle the life or belief of another person on this board will be banned for life, ill grab your IP and ill convince killermonkey to insert an IP ban on your ability to play Goldeneye: Source. Be warned and simply grow up.

"Off topic" is not against arguments, as long as they are RESPECTFUL and INTELLIGENT arguments where you dont take shots at the life of another, rather outwit your debater. Recognize those words and what they mean.
Title: Re: God and the universe...
Post by: major on December 04, 2009, 03:48:51 am
Deleted the "I'm Sorry" Topic. Lets just drop this all, no way of having a dignified religious thread, was doomed from start.

Bash me, but don't really wanna read that argument on here, its just gonna split the community, there is no compromising with religion!