GoldenEye: Source Forums

Debriefing => Questions, Help, & How To's => Topic started by: WNxMurktinez on March 29, 2009, 05:16:33 pm

Title: Question for the devs
Post by: WNxMurktinez on March 29, 2009, 05:16:33 pm
do you guys still use Visual Studio C++ 2005 or have you switched to 2008
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: Mark [lodle] on March 29, 2009, 09:18:18 pm
We are on 2008 atm
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: eamonn on March 29, 2009, 10:30:10 pm
I hear t'is less stable, aye?
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: WNxMurktinez on March 29, 2009, 11:05:29 pm
at the moment? do you guys plan on switching?
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: killermonkey on March 30, 2009, 01:56:14 am
At the moment = NOW, we switched back in August

It is not less stable at all, I find it to be excellent. The only annoying thing is when code is "preprocessed" to not compile it doesn't allow you to use the Right-Click follow function commands on the code... and since Source uses many "shared" code between Server and Client it gets really annoying really quickly, but it is also easier to see where the server code is... meh
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: eamonn on March 30, 2009, 05:07:41 am
On an unrelated note, is C++ hard to learn?
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: VC on March 30, 2009, 05:22:02 am
Not really, but it is very detail-oriented.  If you are sloppy it will crush your soul.  If you are pedantic it will do anything you like.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: Mark [lodle] on March 30, 2009, 05:50:46 am
On an unrelated note, is C++ hard to learn?

only for vc ;P
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: WNxMurktinez on March 30, 2009, 09:52:01 am
On an unrelated note, is C++ hard to learn?

not hard, but not easy, either.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: steven_m64 on March 30, 2009, 10:05:42 am
all thats needed to learn C++ is: a brain, patience, lots of free time, Good learning materials (http://www.amazon.com/How-Program-Harvey-Paul-Deitel/dp/0131857576)

most people will only ever meet 2 of those requirements so it can be a hard skill to acquire.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: WNxMurktinez on March 30, 2009, 11:14:35 am
unless you are creating games, i really don't see a need to learn C++
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: VC on March 30, 2009, 12:34:59 pm
If you want to write software you learn C++.
If you want to write a script to manipulate the software that a real coder wrote, you learn LUA or Python.
If you want to very quickly slap together something to run exclusively in Windows using the GUI interface and you have no concern for performance, you use Visual Basic and then you set yourself on fire to burn off the fail.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: steven_m64 on March 30, 2009, 12:44:35 pm
If you want to write software you learn C++.
If you want to write a script to manipulate the software that a real coder wrote, you learn LUA or Python.
If you want to very quickly slap together something to run exclusively in Windows using the GUI interface and you have no concern for performance, you use Visual Basic or C# and then you set yourself on fire to burn off the fail.

fixed. :D
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: VC on March 30, 2009, 01:07:58 pm
++reputation;
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on March 30, 2009, 01:13:22 pm
I've recently decided that I want to learn how to program. If I'm going to sit in front of a computer for disgusting amounts of time, I might as well learn a useful skill.

I decided to start with Visual Basic, since that seems to be the easiest to learn, from what I can gather. I'm nearly finished with the "Visual Basic 2008 Express Edition" guided tour, with it's seemingly trivial and barely explained examples. A few things are lost on me so far, but I think I'm following most of it. I'm certain I could learn it if I put forth a concentrated effort.

Is it a wise move to start with Visual Basic, or should I just start learning with C++? I know there is no clear answer for that, I just wanted to know what your guys' recommendations are.

I definitely intend to pick up a couple of books next month. Are there any particular books you guys would recommend?
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: steven_m64 on March 30, 2009, 01:29:04 pm
I've recently decided that I want to learn how to program. If I'm going to sit in front of a computer for disgusting amounts of time, I might as well learn a useful skill.

I decided to start with Visual Basic, since that seems to be the easiest to learn, from what I can gather. I'm a little over halfway done with the "Visual Basic 2008 Express Edition" guided tour, with it's seemingly trivial and barely explained examples. A few things are lost on me so far, but I think I'm following most of it. I'm certain I could learn it if I put forth a concentrated effort.

Is it a wise move to start with Visual Basic, or should I just start learning with C++? I know there is no clear answer for that, I just wanted to know what your guys' recommendations are.

I definitely intend to pick up a couple of books next month. Are there any particular books you guys would recommend?

a lot of people think starting with vb is a good start but really every VB book i have seen is only useful as kindling to start a fire and no matter how you use it its always like programming with lego blocks.

VB is the only "language" i know of where you can learn it and never actually learn any of the fundamentals of programing or actually understand what the hell you are doing.

i linked to in a previous post in this thread possibly the best programming book ever made "c++ how to program" any idiot can learn c++ using it if you dedicate yourself to reading and learning from it.

its not a simple read to get through being about 3" thick :D but after reading through a good chunk of it you will be a better programmer then most idiots out there and will actually understand everything behind the scenes witch makes life a hell of a lot more easy.

and after learning from said book its not hard to pickup and move to other real programming languages by just learning the syntax and a few of the library's.

other good books to look out for are those written by andre lamothe.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: VC on March 30, 2009, 01:41:15 pm
PM'd.

VB isn't even Lego.  It's factory-second Duplo.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: killermonkey on March 30, 2009, 02:19:10 pm
Here is my personal progression on learning how to program:

HTML -> JavaScript -> PERL -> C++ -> MySQL -> VB (out of necessity to make a complicated ACCESS database) -> PHP -> XHTML 1.1 Strict

It doesn't matter where you start, except if you start with VB. VB is by far the worst language to start in for two reasons:

1. You don't garner an appreciation for what programming really is
2. You learn sloppy, and often costly, methods that will haunt your thoughts when you move to C++

I started programming at age 13. I am now 24 and am still learning new tricks and different methods for doing things more efficiently and EASIER TO READ. Don't expect this to be a walk in the park, and if you don't have AT LEAST 5 books on programming on your shelf by the end of this year, you have not tried hard enough and will fail. You must put in the effort.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: Mark [lodle] on March 30, 2009, 02:21:47 pm
I wouldnt do vb at all. It is nothing like any thing else and screws you up when you learn real languages.

I would start with c then go onto do c++/c#/java
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: WNxMurktinez on March 30, 2009, 06:02:24 pm
for a hobbist programmer vb.net isn't that horrible of a language. it all depends on what you want to do and how serious you are. if vb.net was such a bad language people wouldn't get paid to develope software using it, but of course c/c++ is by far superior to any other language.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: eamonn on March 30, 2009, 08:16:17 pm
Yeah, I want to learn to program too, and I think I'll start with C++. I'll probably try to pick up that book you linked to, Steve.

By the way, it's Lua, not LUA . :P
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: Mark [lodle] on March 31, 2009, 12:19:11 pm
for a hobbist programmer vb.net isn't that horrible of a language. it all depends on what you want to do and how serious you are. if vb.net was such a bad language people wouldn't get paid to develope software using it, but of course c/c++ is by far superior to any other language.

People only get paid to dev in it because the people who pay them have no idea.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: VC on March 31, 2009, 01:36:26 pm
This.

And they want it done fast, sloppy be damned.  If the project is in VB, then it will be easy to fire the first programmer, who is completely to blame for the poor performance of the software, and to bring in a new programmer, who will save the day, since so many people put VB on their résumés, and look how cheap they are to hire! We can just get a bunch and have them all fix everything at once and then we can dump all but the best one.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on March 31, 2009, 01:46:06 pm
Thanks for the responses and thanks for the PM, VC.

I'm going to try and start with c++, no matter how maddening it may become. But I don't understand how a little pocket reference book is going to teach me (the one you linked to, VC). I shall get it regardless.

I've been looking over the many c++ books on Amazon and their reviews. I'm trying to decide between these two:

C++ How to Program (6th Edition):
http://www.amazon.com/How-Program-Harvey-Paul-Deitel/dp/0136152503

Starting Out with C++: From Control Structures through Objects (6th Edition):
http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Out-Control-Structures/dp/0321545885/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238539009&sr=1-1

The "C++ How to Program" books seem to be praised for their thoroughness of the subject, but criticized for being confusing and hard to learn from.

So I'm leaning more toward the other book. But I haven't quite decided yet. Is someone familiar with both of these series of books? Any suggestion on what I should get first?

I'll also be getting:

Programming: Principles and Practice Using C++:
http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Principles-Practice-Using-C/dp/0321543726/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238469722&sr=1-1

and:

C++ Pocket Reference
http://www.amazon.com/C-Pocket-Reference-Kyle-Loudon/dp/0596004966

I'll be ordering them tomorrow or in the next couple days. So if anyone has any other suggestions on what books I should read, or if you have any other general advice, then you should hurry up and tell me. :)
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: steven_m64 on March 31, 2009, 05:20:23 pm
only retards find "C++ how to program" hard to learn from as i said its the best book i have ever seen for programming.

those who cant learn from that book need to grow a damn brain.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: killermonkey on March 31, 2009, 05:36:10 pm
This is what I learned on:

Sam's Teach Yourself C++ in 21 Days
http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-Yourself-Days-5th/dp/0672327112/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238560484&sr=1-1

The 24 hour books suck ass and leave a lot of holes that you will have to fill eventually. Forget about the "Visual C++" fill in the word "Visual" with Microsoft... it's not about standards kids!
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on April 01, 2009, 08:36:50 am
only retards find "C++ how to program" hard to learn from as i said its the best book i have ever seen for programming.

those who cant learn from that book need to grow a damn brain.

Well, it's just stuff like this:

"Everyone -- beginner and migrating expert -- should avoid C++ How to Program (6th Edition). Notwithstanding the pretty presentation, this book teaches abysmal programming practices, such as blatant and amateurish violations of the Liskov Substitutability Principle."

This is part of a long and persuasive review (not a review on this book in particular. This review is for another book, but mentions many of the most used books). Ugh. I hate reading through reviews. Half of the people say one thing, and the other half say the exact opposite, with equal persuasiveness. But in the end I guess it really depends on the individual reading it.

Sigh. I suppose I need to spend hundreds of dollars to find out for myself.

I'll get "C++ How to Program". But if it doesn't teach me well, then I'm holding YOU responsible. Hehe, just kidding.

I'll be going through this book first anyway:

http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Principles-Practice-Using-C/dp/0321543726/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238469722&sr=1-1

...which should take many weeks or months to fully digest and understand it as it was meant to be. The approach of this particular book sounds very interesting. I hope it to give me better footing for when I move on to more rigid and technical books. I'm assuming "C++ How to Program" is one of the more rigid, monotonous, robot-like texts.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: steven_m64 on April 01, 2009, 11:47:42 am
you dont need the latest edition of the book anything at or later then 4th edition of c++ how to program will be fine and dont be afraid to get a used copy for cheap hell my copy cost me 25$ and was in black and white only:
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3581/imagesm9ji.th.jpg) (http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/3581/imagesm9ji.jpg)

;p

ill say it again only tards don't like that book.

C++ how to program is a gold standard i think of programming books, it is the standard book for teaching c++ in multiple schools.

also don't just look at the reviews of the 6th edition (still quite new)look at the sheer number of 4-5 star reviews for each edition leading up to it.

edit:

did a quick check the 1st (http://www.amazon.com/How-Program-Harvey-M-Deitel/dp/0131173340/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1238627453&sr=8-22), 3rd (http://www.amazon.com/How-Program-3rd-Harvey-Deitel/dp/0130895717/ref=pd_cp_b_1?pf_rd_p=413864201&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0131173340&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=14C472ZKX1TDCY62CCYY), 4th (http://www.amazon.com/How-Program-4th-Harvey-Deitel/dp/0130384747/ref=pd_cp_b_3?pf_rd_p=413864201&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0136152503&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0D2JEXHX74QSZ412BYGM), 5th (http://www.amazon.com/How-Program-Harvey-Paul-Deitel/dp/0131857576/ref=pd_cp_b_1?pf_rd_p=413864201&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0136152503&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0D2JEXHX74QSZ412BYGM), 6th (http://www.amazon.com/How-Program-Harvey-Paul-Deitel/dp/0136152503/ref=pd_cp_b_3?pf_rd_p=413864201&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=0130384747&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0J9DKX2R5JN50G6AN7QB) editions of the book come to a total of 232 5 star ratings.
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: The Beatles pwn j00! on April 02, 2009, 08:14:33 am
I suppose you're right.

Contrary to how I was acting before, price isn't too much of a concern for me (within reason).

I'd much rather pay $80 for a brand new, up to date copy with beautiful colors, pristine semi-gloss pages, and that intoxicating new book smell. Those things aren't going to help me learn C++, but damn I enjoy them. There's nothing quite like a brand new textbook. *pleasure shudder* :)

So, I'll be starting pretty soon here. Once I get mah books, I'll be making an effort to study them for AT LEAST 2 hours a day everyday (preferably more). I AM quite serious about this. I just need to take it slow. I need to try not to get ahead of myself and fall into hopeless frustration. One step at a time. I can do this shit!

If I come across any trouble I'll be sure to bother the hell out of you guys with my extremely ignorant questions. :)
Title: Re: Question for the devs
Post by: eamonn on April 02, 2009, 08:35:51 am
The looming presence of a recession means I'll likely be getting a used 5th edition.