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Author Topic: Music (genuine GE Style)  (Read 23533 times)

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jjmusicnotes

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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2009, 07:56:47 pm »

I see your point of view, and I'm glad that you chose an instrumentation appropriate to define a certain type of atmosphere.

**side note: how do jingle bells fit with the SSSR?**

Unfortunately, I don't agree with your reasoning that there's no point in making something "complex" unless it's going to be used for something.

If nothing else, you should do it for the improvement of your compositional style, the love of your craft, and for practice - so that you know that you're confident in doing it when it is required, instead of just telling us that you can and then only making a moderate amount of adjustments.

I believe Killermonkey had this to say in a different thread:

"We are not interested in hearing about wasting time, if you even knew how much time I wasted coding this mod by writing thousands of lines of code only to have to rewrite it all over again because it wasn't efficient or needed to be more robust you would cry. Or how many models I have made and how many times I reweighed characters after someone already did it because it needed to be IMPROVED."

One of the tricks to composing is knowing the audience you are writing for.  It seems as though the purpose or "audience" of your music would typically be ambiance for a single-player level - while bond is sneaking around and cappin' those lovable inept guards.

The audience that bass and Audix are writing for is an audience of DM-online-carnage-auto shotgun in the face- err'body get's owned (by vc) mayhem.  Intense gameplay must be complimented with intense music, (unless of course you're writing it to be specifically ironic such that when someone dies it feels like Saving Private Ryan -> Adagio for Strings (Agnus Dei Op. #24) - Samuel Barber.)

Atmospheric music does not have to be ethereal and slow, it illustrates a mood.  The mood of your music should meet the rigors and demands of your audience, which for the purpose of this game, is duel-action: the purpose of online play, and the people between the ears listening.
   
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 07:58:19 pm by jjmusicnotes »
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Goldenzen

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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2009, 08:18:51 pm »

I see you and agree. I think I made a wrong point there telling you making music with no sense is useless, that was not my intention to sound like.
To be honest, most of the music I do, is for myself and it`s not used, although I`d like to be able to make it work out for somebody. My HD crashed many times and I`ve lost all my song projects.

But you are right when you say the audience needs to have a music suitable for the hasty levels and missions.

Notice: I am already working on a new track, will take me some time, but I think maybe it`ll be a good mix of hasty and Goldy although I don`t want to change it too much, because for music in style like in the game we already have some great guys doing a great job, I`d like to bring in something "new" so everyone can benefit.

Greets
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:21:19 pm by Goldenzen »
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2009, 08:55:06 pm »

Guys, seriously, watch the movie goldeneye for the score itself. Then come back and listen to his track, hes really quite particular about his samples and they are correct to his goal - and that goal shouldnt be dismissed just because any of us doesnt think it will work in a videogame. I would like him to at least trial and complete one single track tailored to fit to a current beta 3.1 level in his current approach.

Goldenzen it would be an official excercise for the team, may take a month of your spare time to refine a composition to our standards and where it would have a place to release as alternative tracks, but if you are willing for the effort why not? regardless you could attach it to your ever growing resume as one of your key pieces.

up to audix on what ive said though. :D he has final say here.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2009, 08:59:26 pm by Wake[of]theBunT »
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2009, 09:00:21 pm »

Guys, I will do my best. My time is yours, I am dreaming for this since a while, I`ll take my time don`t you worry :)

Many thanks
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2009, 11:56:25 pm »

Hello GES`s

I had a little conversation with SSL and he helped me out with some details in the piece and we improved it, like string beat, some effects that were off and some parts.

Thanks again SSL, your help was great.

Hope you like the result

http://www.yanzen-solutions.ch/The_GE_overworked.MP3

Greets
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2009, 01:38:14 am »

Dude, I'll repeat myself. This latest iteration is awesome! I love your music style. This would fit perfectly into a single player mission such as Surface or Streets. With a little more speed, development in the middle this could become a great multiplayer track, but as it stands its too slow for our gameplay.

Great work!
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2009, 09:11:57 pm »

Hello dear GES guys,

I did a track especially for you. I tried to work on it, having all the critics in my mind. It`s a fast one this time (110 BPM).

I also tried to do a good mix between Norgate, Serra and myself, hope you`ll like it:

http://www.yanzen-solutions.ch/The_Fast_GE.MP3

Here are four other songs I`d like to share with you, not GE but a trailer song:

http://www.yanzen-solutions.ch/The_Zombie_God.MP3

...some chillout sound:

http://www.yanzen-solutions.ch/The_beautiful_sunset.MP3

...some swing:

http://www.yanzen-solutions.ch/The_belly_rumble.MP3

...and some rocknroll

http://www.yanzen-solutions.ch/The_bold_road.MP3

Thanks and cheers,

Yannick
« Last Edit: May 21, 2009, 09:33:26 pm by Goldenzen »
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2009, 07:38:32 am »

Guys, seriously, watch the movie goldeneye for the score itself. Then come back and listen to his track, hes really quite particular about his samples and they are correct to his goal - and that goal shouldnt be dismissed just because any of us doesnt think it will work in a videogame. I would like him to at least trial and complete one single track tailored to fit to a current beta 3.1 level in his current approach.

Goldenzen it would be an official excercise for the team, may take a month of your spare time to refine a composition to our standards and where it would have a place to release as alternative tracks, but if you are willing for the effort why not? regardless you could attach it to your ever growing resume as one of your key pieces.

up to audix on what ive said though. :D he has final say here.


When it comes to the original movie wake, you are correct in his style. However, it still stands that the music was too slow and doesn't fit in the similar style of the other ones we have in the GAME. (I haven't listened to the new tracks yet you just posted, so don't apply this comment to those) The biggest thing I don't like about your GE_overworked...is the goldeneye theme is CONSISTENTLY the same the WHOLE song. It doesn't change at all. Everything around it changes, and it goes up a couple steps occasionally, but I frankly get sick of hearing the same theme throughout the whole song without any deviation to the THEME itself.

Please understand that I DO NOT HATE your music. I am just expressing how i feel about it, it is rather quite good, however I do hear instruments still that I belief sound too much like midi files in that last track you made.....I throw up when I hear midis. :)

Zombie god background accompaniment sounds very cheap sounding....like a midi...the brass sound good. See, I don't get it, certain instruments sound great in your songs, others just make me want to hurl when I hear them cause they sound like a really bad midi file. :(
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 07:41:38 am by CCsaint10 [bklax23] »
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2009, 10:05:10 am »

Dear CCsaint,

first: thanks for listening and evaluating my songs. I absolutely like and need critics, I think they`re something like the engine for (good) music.
But if you just write "some of your instruments sound bad" this is no useful critics for me. See, I don`t know what you`re talking about and what you dislike particularly.
Also notice: This is just a 40 sec. extract, that`s why I think you seem the here the same stuff over and over again, and those 40 secs are meant to give an impression of the feeling. This song is far away from being completed but I want to make it able for you to see what it could be like and to make clear I really want this.

I am at work right now but when I am home I`ll work on it, giving it some more highlights, variety and tunes. Thus make it longer.
If you wouldn`t mind telling me what sounds annoying or what sounds midi-like to you, I can work on that as well.

Sincerely,

Yannick

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jjmusicnotes

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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2009, 02:42:27 pm »

Here are the first 40 seconds from a Fuga I wrote:

http://www.4shared.com/file/107046668/8ade20c7/Fuga_in_Dm.html

(It makes use of Baroque counterpoint and a harpsichord, so it's going to sound dated by about 4-500 years.  :P )

I'm demonstrating that it shouldn't take the listener 15 minutes of listening before they hear something interesting.  If you're only going to give us 40 seconds, then it should be the most mind-melting espionage-sneaking bond-women seducing thing you can come up with.

Here is some constructive criticism and suggestions:

- Learn about musical forms (wikipedia can be very helpful.)

- Write music through those forms.

- Study and analyze music; why it sounds the way it does - what makes it "work."

- Put tons of time into pieces that no one's going to hear - because when the time comes for someone to really listen, you'll be confident in what you do.

- Expensive soundfonts and programs don't make a good composer, time behind the music does, and a love for the craft - for the pure sake of doing it, not just so that people can listen.

- I think that the reason behind the consistency of the simplicity and repetitive nature of the music presented here lies within a combination of a lack on knowledge and experience.

- I'm really not trying to be mean, but realistic; as I understand it, music is a hobby for you, something you've always done on the side.  Although you have learned much about programs and sounds from fiddling around - fiddling will only get you so far.

- Just because you want to try out for this team, or work with them - no matter how badly, doesn't mean that it will happen.  I would absolutely love to work on the music with Audix and bass, however, my classical style isn't the direction that they're going with, and so, it's not going to happen.  (I have a feeling that if I had EWQL and a registered version of FL Studio, I'd have a much better opportunity. *sigh*)

- I tell you all this from one musician to another, to save you time and energy, and to put things in focus for you.

Bottom Line:

I think that your fancy equipment exceeds your knowledge and experience in the craft of music composition, and you need more time and understanding before you market yourself.

This is just my opinion though, and as Audix does most definitely have the final word.




@ CCsaint10 - It's very hard to make soundfonts sound realistic.  The brass sounds nice because it's all in unison, and you can't here the blend of the timbre that you would hear otherwise if properly orchestrated.  The brass also sounds nice because you're only hearing "punches" which are short, if they were sustained or driven through fast passages, it would sound mechanical.  Similar issues occur with woodwinds - mechanical and nasily.  Through fast passages for stringed instruments, the notes tend to "smoosh" together and can come across as a glissando.

Although impressive, the biggest issue with soundfonts (no matter how expensive) is that they're not real people.
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2009, 03:38:50 pm »

You really understood me wrong there. I surely don`t wanna make music just for audience, and I took that sentence of mine back already.
As a matter of fact, I have about 30 Projects on my PC which I am constantly working on and never going to be public, they are just for myself, exercises, you know (I do music since about 6 years)

And the fact that it took me about 5 years just to build up a Serra style instrument library with all the humms and gongs and god knows what else, which people don`t even hear, unless I tell them to listen closely, should show you that I don`t just want to make music for it`s sake and as fast as I can.

But I give you right there: It is just a hobby for me, but a hobby I put a lot of time and effort in.

One more thing: I worked about 3 years with a cheap keyboard + software to make music. I didn`t start off with all them fancy music progs. like you`re trying to understate.

Sorry if I understood you wrong, I don`t want to be mean too, I really appreciate your critics and suggestions. But there are some things you said I can`t just let be ;)

Thanks and cheers,

Yannick
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 03:41:38 pm by Goldenzen »
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2009, 09:49:28 pm »

You nailed the GE movie feel, but we have to remember that most of that soundtrack would not be applicable for GE: Source as we are envisioning it. However, I/we are certainly open to different styles of music for our mod and have no problems with your samples, as the dark/grungy nature certainly applies to a few maps.

The thing hanging me up is that "GE: Overworked" and "The Fast GE" don't really sound like GoldenEye multiplayer gaming. You have more of a minimal style in these two tracks, with the music serving as atmosphere rather than to peak foreground interest. I do think that GE: Overworked could fit very well in a future Streets singleplayer map, though. Remember that faster tempo alone doesn't necessarily translate to become more suitable for deathmatch style gaming.

"The Fast GE" relies too heavily on the standard 4 note Bond progression, simply repeating over and over. Something that made the GoldenEye: 007 soundtrack so great is the multitude of ways that Graeme Norgate and Grant Kirkhope expanded on the Bond themes. It could be argued that the soundtrack would probably have been done differently in the more minimalist feel of shooters today (somewhat how your track previews sound). However, the strong emphasis on melody was necessary for the time and sound quality restrictions of the time. That's what we are trying to recreate with our soundtrack. Bass and I build from each level's original score and put our own twist onto it.

I propose the possibility of you creating a few alternate tracks marketed under the "old-school GoldenEye film style" premise. This may expand or contract over time depending on how proactive Bass and I are on completing new tracks. Give me a few days to assess where we are with the soundtrack and upcoming maps and see which tracks could use alternate versions.

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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2009, 09:57:19 pm »

Dear Audix,

thanks. I absolutely agree with what you`re saying. I think it wouldn`t be bad if we get in touch, because I have some deeper questions about this mentioned plan of releasing alternate tracks.
And I think even though my songs are not going to be used officially, I could sure share my sound library with you GES musicians.

Would that be ok for you ?

Greets
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 10:04:13 pm by Goldenzen »
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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #43 on: May 24, 2009, 04:20:43 am »

Nicely said audix.  You described what I was trying to say very well. I do think you have potential. THe biggest pet peeve I have is the same repeating part of a song over and over again. (as audix said).  THe greatest thing about audix and bass's songs is I never know what is coming. All of a sudden, some crazy bass part busts out, or really crazy crechendo with all the intruments performing. For some reason, I never hear cheesy instruments in their music. I can't really give you any reason of why that would be, but I can for sure go through a new piece if you post one and give you the exact spots that  Ifeel need to be fixed or changed to sound better. Good luck man.

Saint

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Re: Music (genuine GE Style)
« Reply #44 on: May 24, 2009, 07:08:13 am »

Hi guys,

thank you. I agree with you. I`ll listen to some Norgate soundtrack to get some ideas also of variation.

I know what you mean with lack of variety, I`ll try to improve it.

We`ll work it out :)

Greets
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