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Whiny Slappers Hater

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Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« on: June 16, 2018, 05:33:06 AM »

This is a great game. It takes me back to the good old original game and adds more fun to it. Great work!

I am not the biggest fan of Arsenal, but I understand why people like it. I wish my friend and I had come to play before Arsenal was invented, because at the times when we want to play, Arsenal often is the only game type available. I hope that other game types will be played more again someday.

I started playing and had much fun. So did my friend. However, one problem became more and more bothersome, and now he has even stopped playing because of it. It bothers me much too, especially now that he no longer plays. I am talking about the Arsenal Slappers. I do not play much, but I am posting this here because many agree, and I think it is a significant problem that needs to be addressed. I have discussed it with others and seen there are many who agree with us, but most of them stay silent or leave. Understandable, considering that when we speak out on the servers, the Slappers lover often either laughs and slaps more, ignores us, bashes us, calls us whiny, or tells us to shut up or leave. How lovely for a community that otherwise is great. I thought feedback and raising concerns politely was a good thing to do.

The problems with Arsenal Slappers:

1. It is too harsh, especially toward new and weaker players. We typically start with a weak weapon, take a long time to reach level two and get another weapon, only to be slapped down a level to the dull, weak weapon again. We should not lose a level just because a highly skilled player comes and uses Slappers on us.

2. Slappers is far too good. It is unrealistic and takes away the fun. Most players come to shoot, not to slap. They do not want to learn how to be superskilled with Slappers. We even get armor from it, making it even harder to kill the players who use Slappers. The players who use Slappers are typically extremely skilled with it and can easily avoid bullets and take out anyone. When we have for example Klobb or DD44 or another weak weapon, and see an armored Slappers player, we know there is a loss of level coming. It often leads us to try to be killed by someone else as soon as possible, or leave the game in rage.

3. Slappers is not as it was in the Nintendo 64 game. It used to be weak and not give us any benefits such as armor or taking others down a level. At the end of Arsenal games, we typically see that the weapon of choice for the top players was Slappers. It is not right.

The solutions:

1. Make us no longer lose a level from Slappers. This is the most important part that can make the game more playable and enjoyable, especially for newcomers and weaker players.

2. Make us no longer be rewarded with armor for lowering other players' level. It is wrong and makes it too hard for weaker players to kill them, especially with weak weapons.

3. Make Slappers weaker. It used to be difficult to inflict much Slappers damage in the original game. I think it used to be at least as weak as the PP7.

My guess is that the developers like Slappers as it is, and that nothing will be done. However, I think it was worth making a thread about this. I think that two important parts of this game must be to make it friendly for newcomers and similar to the original game. Arsenal Slappers is not good for keeping players, and it is not as it was in the original game. The Slappers players often purposely attack weaker players because they know it will work. They are often cold and could not care less about new players losing the few points they have. There is also plenty of cursing at times. Not pleasant, especially for children coming to play, but I assume there is not much to do about this.

I hope my post does not cause negativity. It was intended to prevent it, provide feedback, and make the game more playable and enjoyable for all the players who are bothered by these problems. Most of them never raise their concerns. As I said, I think it is a great game. I hope it will continue to be improved. I hope to return later at some point and see that things have changed to more players on non-Arsenal servers, and hopefully no more Slappers problems. I could then try making my friend play again too. I think we just came at the wrong time.

I wish you good luck with the community and development.
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Entropy-Soldier

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2018, 02:44:23 PM »

Well, the thing to remember is that all the weapons are balanced around deathmatch modes, and in those modes slappers are generally already pretty mediocre.  They actually already do PP7 damage, meaning they're only really useful when you're having trouble hitting close enemies or your only alternative is the mines or Klobb.  Since Arsenal isn't really what the game is built around the slappers themselves are in a pretty good spot already I feel.  That being said they did get some changes in 5.1, so we'll have to see how they hold up.

While that removes solution #3, there does seem to be a general consensus that slappers in Arsenal are a bit too useful at the moment.  The level stealing + armor gain mechanic was more or less a direct port from 4.2 where the slappers were much weaker, but it held up well in the redesigned 5.0 Arsenal during playtesting so we figured it was worth including.  However, our playtesters are good players and we're not heretics so we play with the radar on, making it much harder to surprise someone with slappers.  Playing in 5.0 it seems much easier to get slapper kills on new players, and then use the armor from doing so to focus down better players in an endless cycle.  It's not an unstoppable strategy but it's certainly easier than intended, so for the 5.1 redesign of Arsenal we've changed things up a bit.  It's still important to have a source of armor in Arsenal, but perhaps not a self-sustaining one. 

The level stealing is another mechanic we're looking into.  Right now it's a bit too easy thanks to the current armor mechanics, but in general it's meant to be fairly difficult and costly to get slap kills.  It's meant to help set back potential rivals and give an alternate, more risky strategy to get ahead.  It generally only gives 2 kills, which isn't a whole lot, but can be enough to turn the tables towards the end of the game.  On its own I don't think its a huge problem, but the trolling potential does seem to be there which merits some thought on our end.


In the meantime it seems like there's a few things exacerbating the issue:


Server Configuration:

"We typically start with a weak weapon, take a long time to reach level two and get another weapon, only to be slapped down a level to the dull, weak weapon again."

This sounds like you're not playing on a weaponset designed for Arsenal, but rather some other weaponset.  Arsenal weaponsets are designed so that the strongest weapons come first, and the weaker ones later.  This is meant to let weaker players have a chance to catch up and make slappers much harder to use in the first half of the round.  If the server your playing on is running a weaponset like Remote Mines or Pistols, they might have a configuration issue and it's worth bringing it up with them.  Arsenal weaponsets typically have "List" in the title, with the strongest weapons coming first.


Radar:

Arsenal was intended to be played with the radar on.  This makes it easier to spot slapping players and find people to fight.  If the server doesn't have radar, maybe try seeding one that does.


Strats:

If you see someone coming to slap you, don't give up!  Back up while shooting at them, and once they get close enough just start slapping them back.  Hopefully you'll at least take off their armor and a bit of health initially, and then maybe you'll have the upper hand in the slapper fight instead of them.  Circle them and crouch randomly to be harder for them to hit.


Just Seed Other Gamemodes:

Most of the time if you wait around in a reputable server for 5-10 minutes you'll get more people to join.  Get a group of friends to help you seed and you'll get the server full in just a few rounds.  There are a lot of people like you looking to play other modes but they all look at the server list, see that no-one is playing those modes, and go do something else.  You can be the one to change that!  Entropy-Server, Graslu's Server, Word is Bond, and Best of Bond are just a few of the servers that you could seed.



Thanks for the feedback and I hope this post helps you out!
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Troy

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2018, 03:22:00 PM »

In the old version of Arsenal, we used a single predefined weapon set.  It was set up in a way so you would start out with the strongest weapons and work your way down to the weakest.  As I remember it, I would use slappers to downgrade someone who was getting close to getting the win.  It worked well and it made the rounds last longer.

In the new version, I see that E-S changed it so we're using the weapon sets from the game.  A lot of these non Arsenal sets go from weakest to strongest.  With this kind of set up, I can see how someone would use slappers to gain the upper hand.  It's kinda easy to strafe, gain a speed boost and kill someone who has a klobb or throwing knives.  Then you just keep doing this to keep the player base on the less powerful weapons.  I can see how that would be frustrating if you were new.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 06:33:04 PM by Troy »
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Whiny Slappers Hater

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2018, 09:57:53 PM »

Thank you for your quick, understanding, constructive replies. I now have a better understanding of why these problems exist.

I agree that a solution can be to join non-Arsenal servers with few or no players, and wait for more players. I wish it worked more often and more quickly. I hope that instead of Arsenal servers being constantly filled, it will become more popular with game modes such as Team Deathmatch. I played it some days ago. It was great.

As long as Slappers steals other players' level and provides benefits like armor, there will always be players abusing it to take down weaker players. They often even take us out with Slappers while we have a great weapon such as RCP90. It simply requires too many hits to take them and their armor out, and they know how to kill quickly with a very few slaps. What often makes it even more complicated is the lag, and that it looks as if they slap us from far away.

The Slappers problems would not have caused so much trouble if it was easier to play non-Arsenal game modes.
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Graslu

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2018, 03:53:40 AM »

Troy, by default they're all meant to be Arsenal sets that go from strongest to weakest. Server hosts make their own and don't follow those rules, that's the issue and not the change E-S made to Arsenal for 5.0.

As E-S said, go to other servers. Right now the reason of why it's only Arsenal servers available is because that's the only community left as the others have "nowhere" to play on, but if you join the community Discords and say you're joining X server, normally a few people will follow and have a match going for the whole night.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 10:05:41 AM by Graslu »
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Captain George

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2018, 05:56:52 AM »

This mode, when it became popular by some miracle, ruined the entire game for myself as well as for others that actually know what GoldenEye was truly about. I used to play frequently but ever since the only 3 popular servers host this "arsenal" mode, I have found myself not playing or wanting to play it. It appeases to me no longer. The newer generation simply does not understand what GoldenEye was or what is is suppose to be. I am highly sure you have lost a great deal of players because of this devastation.

Playing the same old mode over and over is boring, repetitive and dull. I have no idea how people can only play this mode and not be bored. I am at a lost for words. I am not trying to cause issues here but I definitely believe this is a huge problem and needs to be addressed. I hardly see any of the old school players on these forums anymore, and I have a feeling it is because of this mode. I honestly feel we need to discuss this, and get the community talking. I really enjoyed this game over the years and I made a lot of friends and all because of this mod. Now I feel it is such a chore to play it. The mode, at one point was good, but now that it has been reworked, I have become an unhappy customer.

There is so much to GoldenEye, and I know "YOU" the developers strive and work diligently to make this game, how does it feel to know that the majority of what you worked on means nothing to the community? I feel that this new set of players just do not care at all. They are not getting a true GoldenEye experience. There are countless modes to play, which are all great but yet they play only play arsenal. So you basically just wasted your time and effort making those modes no one plays anymore. Hows does that feel? I sincerely feel the game's mechanics have significantly changed and not in a good way. Not because of the engine it runs on but simply because of how the game is now played because of the community. If you, the developers wanted to see positive progress in your community, you'd take decisive action instead of ignoring it and sweeping it on the bus. This is not a personal attack but simply feedback. I am not here to kiss anyone's ass. I only speak the truth based on personal experience. I care way to much about this mod and it's reputation and I am not going to sit back and allow a nonsense community to utterly destroy it.

If you have any insight or feedback on what your going to do to fix this, I am all ears.

Your friend,

George
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 06:05:29 AM by Captain George »
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Entropy-Soldier

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2018, 07:39:12 AM »

We have plans to encourage new players to try servers with a standard gamemode rotation before playing Arsenal in 5.1, which will hopefully show that side of the game to the new players who would enjoy our standard gameplay before they get turned away by Arsenal.  We also plan to make deathmatch style modes a bit more accessible so new players pick up the concepts a bit quicker.  Ultimately there's not a lot that can be done on that front without compromising the spirit of the game but hopefully we can find a way to hammer in the basics.

That being said, there's clearly a demand for Arsenal servers and we don't intend to remove Arsenal or shut down these servers.  If people really want that kind of gameplay, taking it away from them isn't going to make anything better.  If someone plays the standard modes and decides they just want to play Arsenal forever and never learn how to play the normal game, it's their choice.  We all play games to have fun, so if that's how they have fun then good for them.  They don't owe it to us to play the game how we intended it, the success of Arsenal mostly speaks to how inaccessible the rest of the game is to a new player.  GE:S at its core will always have a somewhat steep learning curve and high skill ceiling, but for 5.1 we will make more of an effort to make sure new players know what's going on and the basics of how to succeed.


That being said, 5.1 isn't out yet, so in the meantime it's up to community members like yourself to keep the standard modes active!  Seed a good server and invite your friends, it will fill up before you know it.  We do our best to support community members who enjoy our standard modes, but between our normal lives and working on the game we just don't have the time we need to lead the charge.  Ultimately if there are members of the community who really care about the standard modes, they too have a responsibility to make sure they get played.  Shemp Howard and his friends do a pretty good job of this, and there are many more groups who join deathmatch servers once they're active, but there's always a need for more community members spreading the joys of deathmatch.

So, If you have any insight or feedback on what you're going to do to fix this, I am all ears!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 07:43:36 AM by Entropy-Soldier »
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Captain George

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2018, 08:30:11 AM »

For one, you cannot appease everyone. I would suggest not to because it will create havoc. The spirit has already been compromised, and majorly due to arsenal. Regardless if it is removed or not, will not fix this problem. I think there needs to be limitations on how many times you can play modes, like two times in a row. I don't care how in demand or popular this mode is, and the fact that your losing players each and everyday should be a wakeup call to you. If you deeply care about the game your producing, then you need to show that passion. Right now, I don't see it. If I was a managing director or lead developer and my game was failing because of something like this, you'd better believe I'd be working night and day to come up with a solution. I don't care if I hurt feels removing something or adding limitations, especially if it fixes the issue.

I know people can make their own choices and do as they please with their servers, but there comes a time where enough is enough. I've also seen countless threads on this forums where people are completely unhappy about this. So I am not the only one who feels this way. We are your community and we keep your game alive. You should respectfully listen to our feedback and take it very serious. The path you are going down is not a pleasant one. The game as of right now takes no skill to play or to be good at. The last time I played a normal mode "TMWGG" was 1.5 years ago for about 30 seconds and it was the greatest pleasure. I play one round of arsenal and I vomit. This is definitely not GoldenEye at its core and it missing everything that made it great. I believe that you and your fellow developers will come up with something that will work both ways and make the majority of the people happy and hopefully bring me back to the game. I do miss it but it's quite difficult to play when you are unable to enjoy it due to those circumstances.

I am glad you brought up Shemp Howard, and I highly enjoy what he is doing. His server is the only one I do like because he has all the modes, custom maps, helpful and is usually a frequent player. He also allows for voting for either a specific map and or mode. So, I definitely applaud him for his actions. I wish more people where like him and he seems to understand how GoldenEye is mean't to be played. I completely understand that you and your team half lives outside of creating this game and it can become difficult to make progress. So how many people exactly our on this development team and who is constantly active? I do here quite often that you are lacking in developers in certain fields, could that be an issue as to why things like this are easily solved? How many people do you think you need to get things done, a rough estimate? The game is beautiful and I definitely like the new look with the updated graphics and models, which look very professional. I however miss the wallstrafing and I was a master at that, but then 5.0 came out and now it feels when you strafe that your acting using the c-buttons on an n64 controller, and which I thought was a nice touch.

If you would like we could discuss this over PM so we don't clutter this thread, because I have a few ideas. If you are interested.

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Entropy-Soldier

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2018, 09:34:44 AM »

We still have plenty of developers but we're not as active as we used to be, for a variety of reasons.


Anyway, I'm rather busy tonight, but tomorrow we can certainly take this discussion to PMs or another topic if you wish!  Just please keep in mind that there's a lot that goes into game design considerations and I may not share your vision for the game.  There are a lot of things in the game that drive potential players away, some fixable and some just part of the design, and the more we try to force people to play a certain way the less people will want to play the game at all.

So, I'm more than willing to hear what you have to say, but you have to accept that I may not agree with it.  Thanks for your understanding!
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Captain George

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2018, 03:24:02 AM »

We still have plenty of developers but we're not as active as we used to be, for a variety of reasons.


Anyway, I'm rather busy tonight, but tomorrow we can certainly take this discussion to PMs or another topic if you wish!  Just please keep in mind that there's a lot that goes into game design considerations and I may not share your vision for the game.  There are a lot of things in the game that drive potential players away, some fixable and some just part of the design, and the more we try to force people to play a certain way the less people will want to play the game at all.

So, I'm more than willing to hear what you have to say, but you have to accept that I may not agree with it.  Thanks for your understanding!

I am sorry I haven't contacted you about this yet, life has been busy. What time works best for you? Are you on EST?
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Entropy-Soldier

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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2018, 06:48:36 AM »

Just PM me whenever you'd like and I'll respond when I can!

No need to schedule in advance.
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Re: Arsenal Slappers Ruining the Game
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2018, 12:30:17 PM »

I play on a daily basis (UK GMT) and quite often find myself in arsenal matches - solo or team. Slappers can be frustrating but can also be a God send if you're losing and the other team is on the final weapon, quick slap, you level up, they level down, makes the game last longer.

As pointed out above, if someone is bearing down on you slapping away (taking in to account ping differences as that can mean the distance they slap from is further away), run backwards whilst shooting them in the head, just before you think they will slap you or they will die, rush forwards and slap them. A useful tactic that almost always works and can quite often win the game.

My advice would also be to play on servers near you, i.e. low pings. You'll find the game runs better and you won't be disadvantaged.

Also, on a final note, when I jump on a server that's empty, as many are during my game time, you will find that someone will always log on and join you, so find a game mode you like such as Death Match or LTK and join a server running that mode, within no time at all you will find players joining.

Have fun

Fozzy
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