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[Spacedud]

This is meant to be constructive critique. Okay, so I feel that GE:S just doesn't feel very good to play and that there's something holding it back because it's otherwise technically a great mod.

Possible reasons:

1. In N64 your weapon would move around more naturally. Same deal when using the crosshair. In GE:S weapon movement feel static (limitation?)

2. Hitboxes. There's something off about shooting people in GE:S. Sometimes, it feels like the bullets just doesn't connect; it's like the bullets just disappear.

3. Effects and (sound). I understand the limitations here, but GE:S feels very 'source' (no shit, but still). For example, look at bullets impacts. They do not feel very unique (like they do in N64 version). When dying, it doesn't look like blood, but like red water (limitation?)

I do like GE:S and I definitely think it's an great project, but I have to be honest, too. It seems so close to feel good to play, but there is just something off, I personally feel. I wish it'd feel more like the N64 version, but there's the threat of copyright which probably is a huge limitation, too.

[StupidMarioBros1Fan[1138]]

I believe that the copyright thing is only limiting the sound effects and music, and having the players not look too much like the original actors. I do agree with these things, some of these I don't believe is limitations, just not top priority at the moment, and I hope are fixed are changed in the future. This mod has advanced a lot of the years if you watch early alpha footage, and is an amazing mode.
Also welcome to the forums.

[Jonathon [SSL]]

Believe me, a lot of these little things I've been pushing for for years.

The weapon/view moving around thing is sorta implemented, stand still and you'll see your view does move around a bit - currently only a few weapons have actual "moving around" idle animations, and since we don't have the source files to most weapons I think it would make sense to do that in code.

I agree that the hitboxes feel off - it has to do with the way we have the damage pushback/temporary invulnerability set up. There's almost no feedback as to when you can start shooting people again. And I personally really think something should be done to improve that.

The bullet impacts are different from the default ones (I implemented them), they have little flames at the impact sites and smoke that comes up - just like in GE007

[Spacedud]

I did notice the idle animation on some weapons like the AK, but I'm especially talking talking about how the N64 GE's weapons sways up/ned/left/right when you move/aim, but maybe you did also reply about to this; I'm just not sure.

Those hitboxes are so annoying! I really hope they'll get fixed as a priority.

About effects, I didn't actually notice the flame effect before now.

When I look at old N64 footage, I really miss some of the other effects from that game, though. Like, the pre-rendered death animations when people get shot and fall over. I actually like that better than pure ragdoll physics. Then there's bullet impacts on people, too. Also, how people say 'uh' when they die. When your own person gets shot you hear a 'breathing sound'. GE:S need some of that 'soul essence'.

I feel rather 'disconnected' when playing GE:S. That's maybe a good way of putting it.

[StupidMarioBros1Fan[1138]]

Death animations and player hurt noises will be in 4.3, agree with the swaying when turning as long as it is not overdone.

[Spacedud]

That sounds great if actuate. These ''small'' things makes a huge different.

Are death animations going to be a combination of ragdoll and animation then?

[killermonkey]

http://wiki.geshl2.com/v4.2_release_documentation#damage_and_invulnerability

[Spacedud]

Okay, this must be the weirdest hit detection system that I have every heard about before in a game.

I mean, I kinda understand the theory behind it, although it's really strange. However, the outcome of this hit detection system achieve nothing but a less satisfying experience, right now, as is. It is in my opinion a badly designed game mechanic, as is. I tell you why. Firstly, it's not intuitive, and it doesn't feel right. Right now, I 'd call it a bug even if I know it's a feature. Secondly, I think it kinda clashes with the logic of even having assault weapons in the game in the fist place, that's a personal view, sure. Also, there's a pistol-only mode for pistol fun without other more spammable weapons (and other modes). Thirdly, a pistol is already deadly compared to some less-accurate auto weapons if you aim it well, no?

My suggestions:

1. Make it intuitive somehow. Like, if you hit somebody and the shot(s) does not do any damage then a sound should be played, per hit. A deny sound. However, the hit system uses different timers depending on health. I have a huge issue with this fact. It is really bad design because it makes it much harder to time your shots. The delay should absolutely be a static delay instead. Why make it so complex and thus not intuitive? It totally ruins the game experience for me, as is.

Think about the jump delay for a minute. Why does it feels better? (if you agree). Because it's a static delay and thus it is much more intuitive by logic of this fact alone.

2. Please let us turn this odd feature off as an optional thing. Aiming already makes sense without it, yes, even in GE:S.

I understand trying to relatively faithful to N64 GE, but this should be an option if possible and - no discussion ( :p ) - it should be a lot more intuitive. It feels broken.

[killermonkey]

Your first part of the reply is criticizing us and N64 GoldenEye. No changes to be made than.

Your seconds part raises the interesting point about the increase time when in low health. I counter that when in low health you are 1-2 shots from death from a moderately weak weapon. In such a case you gain an extra 0.6 seconds of reaction time to thwart your foe. Not exactly a mountain of time as you suggest, but enough to turn the tides if you are a good shot and a bit lucky.

Granted it does make it harder to time your shots, but I argue that it creates a better experience overall by allowing you to respond to an active shooter or flee at the critical moment.

One thing that may be a bug is that the increased invuln is applied regardless of your armor status. That may need to be corrected in 4.3.

There is more to this game then you give it credit for. Thanks for the feedback though.

[TriDefiance]

Your first part of the reply is criticizing us and N64 GoldenEye. No changes to be made than.

Your seconds part raises the interesting point about the increase time when in low health. I counter that when in low health you are 1-2 shots from death from a moderately weak weapon. In such a case you gain an extra 0.6 seconds of reaction time to thwart your foe. Not exactly a mountain of time as you suggest, but enough to turn the tides if you are a good shot and a bit lucky.

Granted it does make it harder to time your shots, but I argue that it creates a better experience overall by allowing you to respond to an active shooter or flee at the critical moment.

One thing that may be a bug is that the increased invuln is applied regardless of your armor status. That may need to be corrected in 4.3

There is more to this game then you give it credit for. Thanks for the feedback though.

Definitely need to fix the invuln system.

[killermonkey]

That's an overly broad statement when applied to quoting my post. Need to be more specific or NOTHING will change.

[Spacedud]

Your first part of the reply is criticizing us and N64 GoldenEye. No changes to be made than.

I'm sorry? Is the GE:S team above constructive criticism? I do aim for it to be constructive, at least. You don't want honesty? You don't want feedback with some subjective emotion to emphasize a personal point of view? You know, I'm not trying to be a dick here. I actually have much respect for the work/devotion put into GE:S. It's an admirable project. However, this fact doesn't mean that I'm not going criticize. You sound like you're punishing me personally with 'No changes to be made than'. I'm glad I have that much influence on the project! (s).

Your seconds part raises the interesting point about the increase time when in low health. I counter that when in low health you are 1-2 shots from death from a moderately weak weapon. In such a case you gain an extra 0.6 seconds of reaction time to thwart your foe. Not exactly a mountain of time as you suggest, but enough to turn the tides if you are a good shot and a bit lucky.

Granted it does make it harder to time your shots, but I argue that it creates a better experience overall by allowing you to respond to an active shooter or flee at the critical moment.

One thing that may be a bug is that the increased invuln is applied regardless of your armor status. That may need to be corrected in 4.3.

There is more to this game then you give it credit for. Thanks for the feedback though.

I try to see your side on the matter, but I do not personally find these points very convincing, as is. I'm not saying that this hit detection system is totally flawed in theory, but I argue the implementation of it. Presentation matters a lot, though, and I might even have liked this system if implemented in a other way. Emphasize on intuitiveness and response.

I do think of GE:S as great mod in many a ways, actually, but also as a game that's ultimately flawed design-wise on a few matters. If you put pepper on a otherwise delicious cake then can the pepper not ruin the cake even if the pepper's mass is less than 0.1%? I might be one of the >1% on having these opinions, or not. I gave my feedback because I care.

Edit:
BTW: Instead of a deny sound then a different kind of feedback would also work. Let's say that the bullet's denied had another impact effect instead of just nothing. Like the bullets hitting something hard, you know? This would likely be less annoying than a deny sound, but a deny sound could still be very useful for those that wouldn't mean such deny sounds and just want more feedback.

[kraid]

There allready is a hit confirmation sound.
Introducing a miss sound for every bullet that missed would annoy the player especially with rapid fire guns.

As for a visible effect we have two main problems.
1. impact effects are calculated client side, not on the server.
Sometimes you don't see blood but hit and sometimes you'll see blood and missed.
Introducing an additional effect for missed bullets would increase this discrepancy even more.
2. Latency.
While you won't notice a slightly delay of a sound much, you'll instantly see if a visual is delayed.
Our eyes are simply much faster then our ears.

[Spacedud]

Yes, there's true. The lack of a hit confirmation sound is a indeed deny response in itself, however, does it feel good to shoot at somebody and the only response is the lack of a response? This is a very important point. I don't think it feels very good. It's a limitation of the hit detection construction right now.

I understand the technical shortcomings of impacts being on the client-side in this case. It'd work on LAN fine, though, but not with higher ping, as you said. My ideas might well prove weak upon farther critical thinking on them. I'm really just trying to come up with possible alternatives. I'm definitely not saying they're solid without a doubt. I do think it's more fair to say that deny sounds might annoy depending on the player, not necessary everybody. It also strongly depend on the implementation.

Anyhow, the varying delays is probably the most influencing factor on the matter of feedback.

Edit:
Okay, a quick story. I sneak behind a guy and shoot him in the head 3 times in what should have been a quick execution, however, only the first shot is counted. How frustrating and unsatisfying. The hit detection system is hardly without downsides. I could give more practical examples as to such moments.

[soupcan]

Yes, there's true. The lack of a hit confirmation sound is a indeed deny response in itself, however, does it feel good to shoot at somebody and the only response is the lack of a response? This is a very important point. I don't think it feels very good. It's a limitation of the hit detection construction right now.

The lack of response is fine. I really don't see a reason for an indicator for hits not counted due to invulnerability. The current system works. This is literally the first time I've seen someone complain about it. Once you play the game and get used to it, even with the invulnerability varying based on health, it's easy to properly time your shots.