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Second Amendment My Ass [Text Walls and Discussion]
Mangley:
So it's been a little dead around these parts lately. I thought I'd throw this topic out there to see if I can spark up a discussion that I know many people will have fairly strong opinions on. For personal interest's sake.
The topic is Firearms and more specifically should people have the right to carry and own them?
Now I'm not going to be fair about this, I'm actually biased against rights to bear arms, and I think I have pretty good reasons, and I'm going to deliberately throw loaded questions out there. One thing I'm willing to be is swayed, but only by good, solid arguments. I know the majority of forum-goers here are in the US. So I'm looking forward to, and expecting some good counter-arugments. So let's begin:
I live in the UK, which has very strict gun laws and has an anti-firearms culture. (The only legal guns are single action sporting rifles and shotguns, and historic muzzle loaded guns and even those are very strictly licensed.) Almost my entire exposure to firearms is indirect, through video games, movies, footage, photographs etc. The closest I've come to an actual gun was walking past an airport security guard with an MP5 strapped to his chest. Our police don't carry guns, only specialized units and high level security forces are armed. The consequence of this is it's very difficult and expensive for criminals to get their hands on firearms. This also makes an easy job for police conducting sting operations by posing as gun dealers to bust terrorists and gangs.
By contrast, I see specifically the US is saturated by gun culture and Americans seem to feel very strongly about their right to bear arms. Invalidly so, in my opinion.
Argument 1:
Let me start by critically breaking down what a firearm is. A firearm is a portable machine that is designed to kill. That is what I would define a gun's function as, as that is it's objectively a gun's intended purpose. So why would you allow almost anybody to legally own or carry one of these killing machines?
The consequence of relaxed laws is that there is absolutely no limits of availability of them to criminals. The fact that there are background checks for criminal records is largely irrelevant. There are simply so many guns in circulation, not to mention that all criminals start out as citizens who can legally own guns before they even consider taking up a life of crime that it's trivial for someone with bad intentions to get a hold of one. Not to mention the stresses of life can simply turn a perfectly good and honest citizen who owns a gun into a rampaging maniac with a gun after a hard day at the office.
According to official statistics from the last 15 years the US has a firearm-related homicide rate that is over 59 times higher than that of the UK.
With a base homicide rate that's 3.9 times higher as of 2010.
So you have the right to carry a firearm, but you only need it in order to defend yourself against other people who carry a firearm. Kind of self-defeating isn't it?
Here's a nice list of school massacres. Notice that it only took one school massacre for the UK to completely reform it's firearms laws. Where as the US is up to a total of 16, 15 of which were perpetrated using firearms. And this is only counting massacres that took place in schools and universities.
So how many massacres would it take, and how frequently do they need to happen, in order for the US to tighten gun laws? And how willing would US citizens be to give up their 'rights' to make themselves safer in their own country? It particularly tickles me that many Americans are outraged by proposed restrictions to firearms.
Argument 2:
It's important to bear in mind that the 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution, the right of the people to carry arms, was brought into action in 1791. At the time the most common firearms were single shot muzzle-loaded flint-lock weapons.
Contrast how easy it would have been to rob someone at gun point if you only had a single shot flint-lock pistol which was very prone to malfunctions, to today where you can murder dozens of people in a matter of a few seconds with perfectly legal weapons that you have the right to carry.
How then, is the 2nd Amendment still relevant over 200 years later in the modern age? At the time it was written it could not even be dreamed what future firearms would be capable of.
Don't get me wrong, I think guns are mechanically interesting, very well engineered and beautiful in many ways, and I'd sure love to fire one someday.
Anyway, I'd love to hear some peoples counter-arguments, thoughts, experiences. I'm sure proxie has some, as we regularly discuss this topic. What restrictions should be in place? I don't know the absolute regulations for the US as a whole as I understand it's largely dependent on a state-to-state basis.
major:
Hmmm I like this topic. As a very active shooter myself, I see things in a different light.
I agree for most part that little stricter gun laws wouldn't hurt. I can walk into a store today and walkout within 30 minutes with a new gun(rifle or pistol). All it takes is a background check. So as long as someone hasn't done any criminal activities, there good to go and get a weapon. A criminal cannot legally buy a weapon. But I still wouldn't be against a stricter system to purchase a weapon, as I have no malicious intentions, so a day or a week till I get my weapon isn't a big difference to me.
But since this is the way US has been designed since the start(yeah, hence 2nd amend.) there is nothing we can do to stop criminals from being able to get weapons. We have so many weapons here that there is no way we can remove the stockpile. The government cannot limit the public to a set amount of weapons or anything. No one knows how many weapons a single american owns, as its not logged. The only person who knows how many weapons I have, is who I purchase them from. When you purchase a weapon you sigh a paper that just says "I ____ do not own this weapon and _____ now owns it"(more or less). And those are only required for FFL dealers, so when the cops run the serial number on a weapon and its pointed last to a FFL dealer they can look in there safe, get the paper and show I bought that gun, and now they are out of legal woes. Its not logged to the government. And I can sell a weapon to anyone IN MY STATE with no paper work. But if you sell any weapon, be sure to get some sort of paper work, as its still linked to you. get a signature and picture, or some kind of receipt.
So when a criminal gets his hands on a gun, its 90% likely its a stolen gun. So when its recovered and the serials and numbers haven't been grinned off, its will just odds are linked to a missing weapon report. This is why the owners should take more responsibility in how they secure there weapon. Only places a gun should be on your hip, or secured in your house. Never keep a weapon in your car, as that's the easiest target to get robbed. If your afraid of getting jar-jacked, then appendix carry your weapon.
This takes me to school shootings. This pretty much just falls to the parents. A parent that cannot see that their child is emotionally distressed is just asking for some sort of trouble. And a good string of those issues start at home. Have to teach your kids to deal with there issues, and not let them just take hate on and bottle it. Also a parent with weapons should keep a active eye on his weapons and make sure none are missing, or been tampered with. Ultimately if a parent has weapons and children they should have all but there defensive weapon/s in a safe, and those defensive weapon under close watchful eyes.
So as far as I see America, we cannot fix the laws, our only chance is to fix the people. I'll still keep my weapon on my side, and no one will know its there till others or my life is in risk.
(wrote on the go, might fix for spelling and readability in future)
killermonkey:
I too am an avid gun owner and active target shooter. I bought my first gun at 18 and will continue to buy them until I am dead or broke. My next purchase will be a shotgun.
There is no reason for anymore restrictions on guns. Each state already has there own convoluted set of gun laws and hoops to jump through. Thank God the federal government has some decency to not impose ridiculous regulations on guns (also thankful for the second amendment).
Shooting a gun is about power. I love to target shoot, one of my guns I bought specifically because I was on a high-power rifle team. Shooting a target from 600 yards and getting a bulls-eye is extremely gratifying (no scope). Also the feel of a gun makes you feel powerful and a lot of self confidence.
That is why the second amendment was put into place. It had nothing to do with the limitations of guns at the time. It was about making sure the common man felt powerful, that the government NEVER had ultimate control of ones life. To me a gun is a symbol of independence and freedom. I never intend to shoot anyone with my weapons, but if I had to, I want to know that I can defeat my enemies and protect my family.
I think it is hard for someone who does not have so much freedom to understand what it means. It is easy to point to homicide statistics (which are bull shit because America has many many more urban cities than the UK which are where the large majority of homicides occur).
It is also easy to point to school or office shootings. Honestly, they are blips on the radar and even rarer then terrorist incidents (around the world). Restricting guns does not prevent one from making explosives. Or from this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Tim_McLean
TL;DR
I love guns, I own guns, and I actively defend my rights. I wish the supreme court would "shoot down" all the ridiculous restrictions placed on handguns and concealed carry permits that some states impose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)
Emilia:
Least in Australia, our police carry firearms. I think a police officer without a firearm is pointless. If a person is going to commit any kind of criminal offence, it is going to be with a firearm.
The gun culture in Australia is very different. To own a firearm here, you must either be a farmer, who can possess shotguns or rifles, or be a person who belongs to a gun club. Even then, buying pistols are very highly regulated because of fear of concealment.
I have gone shooting at gun clubs several times and I absolutely love it. It is as KM said; you feel more powerful. However, I am just one of the few who know what it is like to fire a gun or at least know about them.
Last week, I have some training at my pharmacy about robberies. A cop came in a showed us some weapons and passed them around. Everyone there held them so carefully and with a little bit of fear. I think I would have been the only one in that room who had held a firearm before.
All of this week, so many pharmacies have been robbed. I think about my future pharmacy career and how I will have to spend late nights at my pharmacy. I personally would like to be able to defend myself, but the laws in Australia won't let me do that. Because even though it is very difficult to buy weapons here, there are so many floating around being used to commit crime.
kraid:
Just like most other things, gun laws are very restrictive here in germany.
e.g. any automatic rifles are banned and only military is allowed to use them.
So there are only handguns and single fire rifles allowed, but even then you have to be in a shooting club in order to get a weapon licence that allowes you to posses a weapon.
You literally cannot even buy softair guns if you're under 18 years.
And don't get me started on rules for storing your weapons.
e.g. they have to be put into a safe where only the gun owner has access to and ammunition is not allowed to be stored in the same place as the guns.
The gouverment is allowed to come to your house and check that you obey these rules.
These days you even need a so called small weapon licence for gas pistols or even some sorts of knifes.
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