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[qwero]

I played for ~10h now and it's really a great mod, but the hit detection seems ... random. Its like playing TF2 on a 200 ping server. Sometimes enemies take no damage (i.e. survive 3 hits w/ golden pp7), sometimes they drop like flies when you casually aim in their direction. I know you will say "ITS THE LAG", but i have this problem on servers w/ low (~30) ping too.

Mabe lag compensation is not working properly? Does any1 else have this problem? I have seen a few players ingame talking about odd hit detection, but no big complaining.

[Emilia]

GE:S uses the invulnerability feature. Once a person gets hit, the invuln period is active and shots will not register. That is why blasting someone with an RCP90 will not kill them immediately and someone using well timed shots with a DD44 can stop them.

In 4.2, this invuln period has been shortened, so now it is easier to hit people. However, taking into consideration lag issues, international players, etc, less shots are still going to register. This is why the hit detection sound was added and is a fantastic feature to know what shots are doing what.

[Mangley]

Like Emilia said, we have an invulnerability system as well as an unrealistic damage model - it's normal for some weapons to require multiple headshots in order to kill.

The hit confirmation sound indicates when a shot you fire deals damage. If you don't get the sound then you didn't hit, either because of invulnerability, hit detection issues, or you just plain missed.

[qwero]

Ty for all the answers.

Our players really underestimate exactly how much lag differential affects a mod.

They are so used to Counterstrike and other commercial games where everyone in a server can have 5-50 maximum. with no players over 100 ping.

Yep, im used to play TF2 on Euro servers where most players have <100 ping^^

GE:S uses the invulnerability feature. Once a person gets hit, the invuln period is active and shots will not register. That is why blasting someone with an RCP90 will not kill them immediately and someone using well timed shots with a DD44 can stop them.

Ahh, that explains why you often need so many bullets when using automatic rifles.

[slashsarc]

Instead of making a new thread, I will just append to this one.

First off, I would just like to say that you guys have done a truly phenomenal job with this mod.  I do very much enjoy playing it, and am very grateful that someone took the time and effort to remake Goldeneye as much as possible.

Unfortunately, as others have experienced, there are some major issues with the hit and damage system.  Frankly, it’s a critical show stopping problem that people in many servers have been complaining about.  I’ve done some research on the forums, and have played the game quite extensively over the past few days to understand how the system works.  I have played the game both online and offline with bots to rule out any network issues.

Initially, when I first started playing the game, I had no issues at all with the hit system.  The first few games I played were License to Kill matches.  On those matches, I have experienced absolutely _ZERO_ problems with the hit system.  In fact, I felt that the hit system was working perfectly.  During those matches, my ping was consistently under 40.  The experience changed significantly when I played a standard, non LTK match.  It is on these matches that I have experienced very inconsistent and bizarre issues with the hit system.  Again, my ping during these matches has been consistently under 40.

I have also played offline with bots, and my experience was perfectly identical to my online experiences.  Thus, I do not believe that lag and other network related issues are the cause of this problem. After playing these matches, I realized that the hit detection system is actually working properly.  Hits are being detected properly on both LTK and non-LTK matches.  This leads me to believe that the problem is _NOT_ hit detection (which many others are pinning the blame on), and is in fact related to the algorithms and methods utilized to determine the amount of damage that is attributed to each hit.  This makes sense, as LTK matches to not exhibit this problem.

To further support this, I was playing a Gun Game match yesterday, and during it, I shot several players with a Gold PP7 in the head multiple times.  During each shot, the “hit sound” was created.  Thus, the game is registering that the players were hit, but, the damage is not being properly attributed to each hit.

Based on my experiences above, I simply do not buy that the problem is with the source engine.  I have played a number of source engine games for quite a while, and I have never experienced any issues of this magnitude with their hit systems.

Other than the hit system, the mod is quite flawless and very fun to play.  I just wish that there were more LTK servers, since I don’t experience any issues with them.

[killermonkey]

During each shot, the “hit sound” was created.  Thus, the game is registering that the players were hit, but, the damage is not being properly attributed to each hit.

Not entirely true.

If you hear the hit sound, then damage WAS given by your shot. Although the amount of damage given is not obvious.

If you want to see what goes on behind the scenes, start a localhost server, play with a bot and set "developer 1" in the console. This will print out the invulnerability and damage reports to the console.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with our hit detection or damage system. The only thing that is wrong is years of Call of Duty and Counter Strike making people think that every hit will do damage. Not true in GoldenEye.

Better explanation: http://wiki.geshl2.com/index.php/V4.2_Release_Documentation#Damage_and_Invulnerability

As a matter of fact, GES has BETTER hit detection than TF2 and other source based games. I fixed an internal issue with the way the source engine deals with tracing and hit detection. Basically, if the hitboxes of a model are outside of the bounding box of that model due to animations, they will NOT be hit. I have corrected this in v4.2 by ensuring the bounding box completely wraps the model during hit calculations.

The hit sound was added in v4.2 to let you know when you actually did damage instead of another player's invulnerability blocking the hit. In fact, you can use the damage sound to help you better time your shots so that they do not land during invuln periods. You are simply wasting your ammo.

As you clearly state, there are no hit detection issues in LTK, where invulnerability is not present. This should tell you straight away that there is nothing wrong.

[killermonkey]

Editors note: I removed all the responses to this thread that were incorrect or point the "blame" towards the source engine or lag. I don't want the correct answer (see above) to be muddied with opinions or hypothetical answers.

[markpeterjameslegg]

When I first joined these forums a couple of years ago I bought this up, I was convinced there was either cheating or something wrong with the hit reg and I got the same response. What killermonkey is saying is fact, the Invulnerability period is what makes Goldeneye Source unique compared with other online FPS, the amount of kills achievable by the player are not necessarily determined by the weapon they hold, but by the skill with which they use that weapon, it's very possible for someone holding a PPK to kill an RCP90 holder with well timed and accurate shots thanks to the Invulnerability Period. With patience and practice reward will come, just stick with it.

[slashsarc]

Upon reviewing how the invulnerability system works, I do now have a greater understanding on how the system operates, and why it was implemented.  I can certainly understand why it is important to control fully auto spamming, like with the RCP-90 or the AR.  However, in practice, I have found that wielding a pistol against a player with one of those automatic weapons still puts you at an incredible disadvantage.  In fact, I would argue that the invulnerability period as currently configured actually works against people with pistols and works for people wielding fully auto weapons.

Allow me to explain:

If you have an RCP, it is incredibly easy to spray a player and aim at them.  However, with a pistol, you are forced to shoot in a very controlled manner.  Therefore it is highly critical for a player with a pistol to get as many hits as possible on the opponent with the automatic weapon.  But, pistols also have that invulnerability period.  Therefore, if you are on a pistol you need to try so much harder than the player with the fully automatic weapon to get well timed and well placed shots in.  Frequently, this does not happen.  Thus, I believe that for pistols, the invulnerability period should be reduced (not eliminated).  This would provide a greater amount of balance to the game, while increasing the skill level and achieving the initial purpose of the system.

In addition, I believe that the invulnerability period should be slightly reduced for players with fully auto guns as well, but not eliminated.

This also goes into why I like the LTK matches: It matters that you aim and shoot properly, not that you have a better weapon (although it certainly helps).

[killermonkey]

That's a very interesting idea.

[markpeterjameslegg]

I think I mentioned adjusting the Invulnerability Period for different weapons some time ago, but it was thrown out at the time. I do like this idea in terms of balance, and I still believe it could improve the Invulnerability System overall, not changing the way Goldeneye worked, but improving upon the way Goldeneye worked, what does everyone else think? Maybe try it out with a night of testing, see what the feedback is.

[Emilia]

The way I am thinking is that the game needs to have challenges for both new players and long term existing players.

Yes, if the invuln period was reduced for those wielding pistols, yes, new players will have a better chance to make a kill, but for those long term players, that will be too easy.

For a lot of us that have been around for a long time, we have learnt how to use the invuln period and what is takes for us to make a kill with a pistol against a person with a RCP90, for example. There is a serious reward for those people who practice and play a lot.

The current invuln period is quite balanced. Things got tweaked from v4.1 and when I started beta testing v4.2, I could definitely notice the difference in the mechanics. We don't want to tweak it too much, otherwise we will turn into every other FPS out there, which has no real skill effort at all (in my opinion).

However, we want to listen to our new players as well and make sure that we have the most balanced game mechanics, so that you can enjoy our game and stick with us.

So it can be a very difficult thing to try and create the best balance for new and old players.

[markpeterjameslegg]

I have managed to shoot a high powered weapon holder with a pistol on many occasions in 4.1, however that does seem harder now in 4.2, but I like the way the game feels right now, it's definitely a better balance than 4.1 and I would be quite happy for it to stay the way it is.

[PPK]

I think you're overthinking the system. Don't try to compare a normal pistol with a P90 because one deals almost twice as much damage as the other so don't try to evenly balance everything for everyone: if you have a pistol, you're supposed to be in disadvantage compared to the person who has a P90. How you get out of that situation is up to you - you either have a steady hand and keep your cool under fire and land as many headshots as possible or you high-tail out of there.

If we compare a P90 with a CMag, for instance, things are on a more even playing field. It still takes some skill to use the CMag but it has its upside. I think the invulnerability time in 4.2 makes things a bit more hectic and it's easier to die but also easier to kill. I believe that what you're proposing would simply lower the difference between weapons and, at its best (or worst), would make using one weapon or another indifferent since, in the end, the damage you were capable of dealing would be roughly the same; that way there'd be no reason to have so many weapons. One suffices. or it would basically be the same as playing LTK, except you would need to be shot more times to die. I think that adding more "balance" to a system that already works pretty well is unnecessary. No need to over-engineer it.

[namajnaG]

I respect those ideas, In fact I do agree with them at some point, Balancing the invulnerability period between PP7 holders and RCP90 holders, But we're forgetting something here...
Goldeneye was all about finding the highest powered weapons on the map and dominating your friends.
Sure, We need a balanced system to let new players adapt to the game, And I do honestly believe we have achieved that with the release of v4.2, It might need more tweakings, But it's overall fairly balanced already IMO, Considering that on the original N64, You couldn't shoot while you had your invulnerability timeout.

There are new players in every game and old players in every game, It's normal that old players are usually better than the new ones, That is why new players need to practice, They could start with bots, Or they could start with skilled players.

I believe playing with skilled players over and over all the time is what makes a new player good at the game, Because he's getting on the skill of the good player, He practiced against good players and when the time has come, He can kick that player's ass. It's all test/error, Well, That's how I got good at the game personally, Or any other game really.
It's just like a teacher, You're not on the level of the teacher unless he teaches you what he knows. That's how I personally see it, Maybe you guys have a different view on this.

I'd love to see the invulnerability system perfected, But let's not leave the "dominating your friends with high-powered weapons" aspect behind.

[markpeterjameslegg]

I decided to post this here as well because it's a good lesson to those thinking there's something wrong with the hit detection. This is a video of me experimenting with the Player Impact sound, I decided to put a hurt sound to replace it, everytime a bullet hits the enemy, they make a hurt sound, but watch closely how many shots I fire compared with the amount that actually hit and you'll discover that the hit detection works perfect, missing is solely to do with my aim, weapon spread and Invulnerability Period:-

[RobbeR49]

In addition, I believe that the invulnerability period should be slightly reduced for players with fully auto guns as well, but not eliminated.

It has already been reduced in 4.2 and I believe gameplay has suffered greatly. You had a better chance with a pistol vs an automatic previously.

And you can't "find" the highest powered weapons anymore, you get them by being lucky and spawning near them.

[Mangley]

It's an interesting idea.

However: The thing is the invulnerability period is pretty much as short as it could be whilst still being noticable... Making it shorter for certain weapons would either make almost no noticable difference or too much difference to the point where it completely turns the tables on weapon power.

It's perfectly legitimate to have unbalanced odds in a game. In fact, it's great to have that. If you balance everything too much the skill ceiling of the game is lower. The whole point in powerful weapons is so you can play aggressively and offensively and dominate more of the map. If you make it so any player can just double tap the mouse button to take you out in an instant then that really goes out of the window and then the game becomes more about jumping about like a dipshit because avoiding damage becomes more important than dealing it.

namajnaG hit the nail on the head with what he said.

[Emilia]

Of course you can find where the weapons are. After playing for a while, you know where the highest level weapon is in the map. Press C and you can see a list of all the available weapons. This is never a problem with standard weaponsets, but if servers are not setting up weaponsets properly, it is still able to be figured out from looking at this list.

[RobbeR49]

I know where all the best weapons are, that's not the problem.

What I am saying is with the spawning and less amount of time you are able to stay alive now, traversing the map to get to the best weapons is much more difficult.