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[killermonkey]

Be careful, your emotions are showing.

Listen, you keep arguing about this so that means you only want 1 outcome, you want us to remove invulnerability.

That is not going to happen, but we accept your criticism.

What will happen is that we will better educate the player about the invulnerability mechanic and explain why it is in the mod and what it does for them when playing.

Think about this, if we remove invuln then you die faster unless we give people armor (no) or more health points (no) or nerf weapon damages. So barring any changes, you die faster and spend less time playing the game due to the mandated 8 second death sequence. Also, you are way more susceptible to "back kills" without any chance of rebuttle (which is my worst gripe in any normal game).

We have noted your criticism, it has caused some stir, but you will not see the removal of the invuln mechanic, sorry.

[Flash2011]

Seems like the game would have a lot more depth if invuln was gone though.
The other part is it sounds like you guys don't want to have deal with the headache of balancing the issues that would come along with removing invuln.

[VC]

Invuln can't be removed.  Even your beloved Counterstrike has it.  Because, the weapon's fire rate IS an invulnerability period.  If a weapon fires at 10 r.p.s., then it induces a 10ms invuln period whenever it goes bang.

Besides, we're trying to reduce the amount of Boom Headshot culture in this game, not stroke it to climax.

As we discussed, we had no-invuln before, in Alpha 1.  The whole game boiled down to pure run and gun.  You got the KF7, and you drove it straight into people's faces.  ZMG was just lesser-KF7, since it was equally spammy and did less d.p.s.  The pistol was something you spammed as a semi-automatic SMG.  It also was your only long-range weapon, since it had the smallest spread, save Golden Gun.  The Automatic Shotgun was best down hallways, since its accuracy was better than the SMGs, by virtue of it firing a zillion pellets at once and being on the stock Valve code was guaranteed damage.

Adding invuln was what cured the balance headache.  With it, one skillful bullet is worth as much as a skillful burst.  The winner is the one who shoots better, not just more.

[markpeterjameslegg]

I actually think removing Invulnerability  would be a bad idea, but let me ask you this out of curiosity, Is it different for each weapon? If not, it should be adjusted possibly, or tweaked a little to please the both the few and the many.

[Flash2011]

Invuln can't be removed.  Even your beloved Counterstrike has it.  Because, the weapon's fire rate IS an invulnerability period.  If a weapon fires at 10 r.p.s., then it induces a 10ms invuln period whenever it goes bang.

Besides, we're trying to reduce the amount of Boom Headshot culture in this game, not stroke it to climax.

As we discussed, we had no-invuln before, in Alpha 1.  The whole game boiled down to pure run and gun.  You got the KF7, and you drove it straight into people's faces.  ZMG was just lesser-KF7, since it was equally spammy and did less d.p.s.  The pistol was something you spammed as a semi-automatic SMG.  Non-stop clicking because its damage was low.  It also was your only long-range weapon, since it had the smallest spread, save Golden Gun.  The Automatic Shotgun was best down hallways, since its accuracy was better than the SMGs, by virtue of it firing a zillion pellets at once and being on the stock Valve code was guaranteed damage.

Adding invuln was what cured the balance headache.  With it, one skillful bullet is worth as much as a skillful burst.  The winner is the one who shoots better, not just more.

Boom headshot culture? All you did was make it even MORE important to get head shots because body shots are practically worthless. You guys keep on and keep on about how important it is to pick your shots...but what you're really saying is go for the head, hitting the head is key to getting kills.

Removing invuln would mean that hitting the body actually does something now.

[VC]

Culture is the operative word, there.  CS is full of egos who burst with pride because they've memorized Dust 2 to a reflexive level, or because they spammed AK in a room and got lucky.

I'll put it this way: If you were aiming for the head, you wouldn't be affected much by invulnerability, because you would have a d.p.s. of 75~100 with even the terrible SMGs you bemoan.  If only one of six bullets counts due to invuln, and we then remove invuln and reduce damage by a factor of six to balance, would you be killing any faster?  No, same d.p.s.  It would actually be lower in practice, since with invuln, you're paid for six hits on the first one, and the next five are immaterial.

The real difference is this, as far as your comparison to Counterstrike is concerned:
In CS, spraying four bullets at the head is usually lethal.  Spraying four bullets at the chest is usually lethal.  At the head, the first bullet or first two get the kill and the others hit the backstop.  At the chest, they hopefully add up to 100+ or are enough to finish a wounded warrior.

We (ourselves and the original GE devs for that matter) decided that only the burst at the head is headshot-worthy and the chest-level attack doesn't count as Good Enough so frequently.  Because our weapons are highly accurate, random headshots are uncommon, while in CS, you game the recoil system to increase your random HS chance.

[WNxEuphonic]

Sort of going back to only gameplays from the original game, Live and Let Die, Capture the Key, and GunGame are new modes for GE:S. Also my Casino Royale modes, Uplink, E-S's Hold The Briefcase and a few others are in some server rotations. If you have any good ideas for gameplays make a thread. If it's a good suggestion and possible using the GE:S code someone might make it : )

[Kratos]

By proportion, how many people in the world are artists?  How many are musicians?  How many are architects?  Damn fucking few.  Most people are consumers, not creators.  Most people will simply want to consume more of what they already consume at a lower cost of effort.

Hmm, your are so right. Not many students in colleges want to go and become a musician, artists... Architects? probably like buildings and stuff.. maybe...

Good thinking though...

[Flash2011]

Basically how I see it is this with invuln.

You guys are worried that skilled players are going to get killed by newbies cause of the random headshot 1-2 hit kills. The thing is tho that maybe 20% of the time newbie players will score an easy kill with a random headshot. 80% of the time though skilled players will be able to get more headshots cause they're better at placing shots.

I'll put it this way: If you were aiming for the head, you wouldn't be affected much by invulnerability, because you would have a d.p.s. of 75~100 with even the terrible SMGs you bemoan.  If only one of six bullets counts due to invuln, and we then remove invuln and reduce damage by a factor of six to balance, would you be killing any faster?  No, same d.p.s.  It would actually be lower in practice, since with invuln, you're paid for six hits on the first one, and the next five are immaterial.

The DPS then would be based on the guns RoF, which makes guns unique amongst each other. A ZMG would be good cause it can potentially put out more bullets then the D5k, but D5k would be more manageable because of its lower RoF. The RoF dictates the DPS.

Right now you have a static DPS system that ALL guns must adhere by. The invuln system.

[Flash2011]

By proportion, how many people in the world are artists?  How many are musicians?  How many are architects?  Damn fucking few.  Most people are consumers, not creators.  Most people will simply want to consume more of what they already consume at a lower cost of effort.

This quote is terrible because it basically is saying "I'm an artist and I make my work for myself, either love it or hate it."

In reality though this "Art" is actually just copy of another artists work. This "Art" in order to be considered good art or well liked, which is what all artists want, has to be approved by the user base.

[VC]

You guys are worried that skilled players are going to get killed by newbies cause of the random headshot 1-2 hit kills.

Quaking in our boots.  If any of us dies once to a newbie, we slit our wrists in the bathtub.

more manageable

You're assuming rate of fire affects accuracy, because you assume it affects recoil, because your idea of Goldeneye on PC is Counterstrike with player skins.

My statement does not imply that I am an artist.  I'm pretty much piss at art, music, and architecture, although I can handle a drafting machine.  My statement underscores the problem with a general election: very few of those polled are going to approach the question as a creative mind guiding another creative mind.

[Flash2011]

None of what you have yet to say has convinced me that the invuln system makes any sense.

I'm arguing that it's a bad system and you should work on removing it and balancing it around that. All you've done is manage to make fun of me.

This is the impressions & feed back forum, I've left my feed back and impression as one of your players and all you've done is instead of saying to your self, "Maybe our players don't enjoy this system, I thought it would work and it hasn't." you've opted for arguing with me and making fun of me.

Here are a list of things you've said to either get at me or just don't make any sense.

CS is full of egos who burst with pride because they've memorized Dust 2 to a reflexive level, or because they spammed AK in a room and got lucky.

Hardly. Just because there are some like that doesn't mean your game is going to have that.

Because our weapons are highly accurate, random headshots are uncommon, while in CS, you game the recoil system to increase your random HS chance.

The guns in GE:Source are far more inaccurate than those in CS because in CS almost every time you fire or burst the initial burst is super accurate for most guns. The first bullet i would say 99% of the time goes to the center of the screen. Not so in GE:Source. Over the course of unloading your gun, yeah GE:Source is more accurate, but if your not meant to full auto then what's the point?

Even your beloved Counterstrike has it

I don't love Counterstrike, I'm only using it as a comparison. I could just as easily say Left 4 Dead or Nexon FPS games. CS just happens to the one most people have probably played. Don't get mad at me for only using CS as an example.

because you would have a d.p.s. of 75~100 with even the terrible SMGs you bemoan.

Your trying to make me sound like i'm a whiner when i'm merely stating feedback from my impression in the Impressions & Feedback forum. I think the SMG's are currently so unbalanced you may as well have left them out of the game. Pistols and Rifles do it better.

[killermonkey]

Listen man I was cool with you presenting your opinion earlier, I even showed you ingame what was up. Please have the common decency to not pick a fight with VC, you won't win, he has no heart.

What is your goal in all this? We are not going to change the mechanic. If you don't like it after playing the game, I'm sorry but there are about 10,000 other games you can play that you might like. All games are not for everyone, and our game is certainly not a one-size-fits all affair.

So, unless you have some more feedback to give us BESIDES INVULNERABILITY, I want to see this discussion ended.

[Flash2011]

I'm just at a loss for words.
I feel like I've presented you guy with a golden opportunity to take a classic game and elevate it to new heights (I'm not talking JUST about the invuln system).

What if other people felt the same way as I did about removing the system?
 
I've talked to numerous players and most if not all of them agreed that the invuln system was reallly funky.

I'm not a bad guy, I'm not a jerk. I'm just an experienced gamer and I've played many games and I'm aspiring designer. I try to take what doesn't make sense in video games and dissect it and improve upon it. An example of this would be the Grenades in CoD4, they were WAAAAY out of hand. What did I do? I played ProMod and talked the devs about it and they agreed that nades were out of hand so they toned down the radius and damage. That created a much more entertaining environment and attracted much more players.

When game sequels come out they typically take the original game and improve upon it. Also QA tests what works and doesn't work, if the title launches and the fans dislike it what QA thought worked, the devs rectify it through patches (typically that's how it goes).

I feel like you guys can take GE:64, see what really isn't fun or doesn't hold up in 2011 and fix it. If GE:64 had a few guns that ruined gameplay and players hated it would you just add those guns in and leave them as is and just say "Hey players, i know they suck, but the original had it...so deal with it."?

As a fan of GE:64 from back when it launched and someone who's been wanting a sequel since then I was excited to hear there was remake on steam. Hoping it was going to be something new and exciting I was immediately let down when I started playing it as I realized that, no matter how good you can be, because of how this is version is an exact replica of the original, you'll never be able to score a lot of kills based on skill. Its just like all the other old run and gun games.

That is odd to me to see that because I feel like "Why would anyone seriously want to go back to playing the way games use to be made when you can simply take a classic and make it super awesome."
Which is again why Duke Nukem Forever bombed and why GE:Source player base is so tiny.

My last example would be:  Your making a shooter, you think its going to be super awesome and you think to your self, Duke Nukem Forever is a game i'd like to remake. You remake it, word for word, page for page, scene for scene. You notice the small player base and all the complaints saying "Why would you want to remake an outdated game and not even improve upon. You know what's wrong with it and how to easily escalate it to super star status, but instead you simply say "I don't care, I remade it the exact same way and that's final, deal with it or don't play it". Why would you ever want that as a designer/developer, you want players to play your game right?

[markpeterjameslegg]

I do know where your coming from Flash2011, I've been here before, but for us this is a mod, for them this is their baby, would you want to change any of the features on your baby, besides this is a remake and that's exactly what it does, it's original because of that fact. The mod has an awkward learning curve for sure and it does scare away a lot of players, but just stick with it cos this is as good a remake as your ever going to get, and the next release s going to be awesome.