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Author Topic: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students  (Read 14552 times)

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jjmusicnotes

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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2010, 07:20:23 pm »

What's to consider?  You cannot legislate any of the following and get re-elected:
* Discipline your children to pay attention in school, and authorize teachers to maintain that discipline.
* Alter your cultural values to elevate the learned man above they who merely know enough to survive, often on subsudies.
* Pay teachers according to realized performance, not according to union dictate.

Agreed, especially that last one ;)

However, effectiveness of teaching concepts is not wholly contingent upon discipline.  There are obviously myriad reasons why students do not pay attention - one the largest of which pertains to the concept known in the academic world as "transfer" - the ability for students to correlate concepts to their personal life.  If our educational system was altered to reflect information that people would actually be able to USE, then we would see more success that we currently do.

Cultural values also definitely affect how students learn, and lesson plans (at the very least student-teacher interaction) must be adapted in order to meet the students' needs.  Rather than alter different cultural values, teachers should capitalize on those differences in order to illustrate different points of view for the same concept.  More neurological connections = easier to retrieve information = smarter people.

Average beginning teacher salary is ~ $28,000-32,500.  As a music teacher, I took 40 more credits than those of you with a single undergrad degree, as my degree is essentially 2 in 1.

I think it's a little ridiculous that America gauges our success with students based solely on numbers, grades, and statistics, not the content of our character, our personality, or our ability to be good human beings. 

There are more things to consider than there are years to fix them.
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2010, 12:37:50 am »

Presidency is not that important, honestly.  If you want to fix things, you need to find the right people and vote them in at every level, city, county, and state.  The more-important election is coming in a month.

It is wholly contengent on discipline.  You either have the discipline to pay attention and absorb the lesson, or you don't.  Not even a death in the family changes this fact; it's a popular excuse to miss class, but the truth is quite simply that most of the population lacks the discipline required to set that aside and maintain studies.  There is no right or wrong in this, just an objective fact.

"Transfer", a made-up re-definition of a word, wrapped in quotation marks to emphasise this fact, designed to be highlighted in boldface in a worthless textbook, is an excuse.  Here's why: If you base your self-esteem (SELF) on what you can, and do, accomplish, then the phrase "it's not like I'll ever need to know this" is never uttered, since everything learned has the potential to become useful, albeit unexpectedly.  That popularly-clichéd statement is a cowardly excuse.  The human brain, despite being a greasy blob of crap, has more useful storage than you will ever challenge it to contain and it has developed to become almost impossible to "clutter" such that you can't find what you need when you need it.  There is no cost to learning something that you will never use again, except the price of not being lazy.

Exactly how do you propose one capitalize on a cultural value of "smart is bad?"  Excepting, of course, creating a nation of easily-controlled and easily-pacified chattle.  Futhermore, what use is "illustrat[ing] different points of view" when the student's plan for the day is "I will sit here and daydream until the bell rings because school is wasting my TV time"?

Before distracting ourselves with salary figures, let us establish that, in general, a serious lack of financial discipline has created a madness that mistakes discretionary expenditures for necessary expenditures; e.g., no, you do not HAVE TO afford cable TV, a vacation journey, personal cell phones for every member of the family, or a new vehicle, when you have the option of renting a book from the library, relaxing at home, sharing a phone, or maintaining your current vehicle.  While arguing "more" or "less" money as compensation for higher- or lower-quality work is fine, citing numbers is unfounded without adjustments for the earner's family type, regional cost-of-living, etc.

America doesn't guage its success anymore.  It sits in a throne of its own detritus and says "I'm good enough and if you disagree you're an asshole for thinking you're better than I am."  Numbers, grades, and statistics are meaningful only insofar as if they are "bad" then the public will demand that "someone" do something to make them "good," without any interest in how that is achieved.

I disagree.  One proper zombie outbreak and the survivors will be prepared to make a clean-break as they rebuild.
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2010, 01:02:37 am »

I read the first and last paragraphs. VC needs to be admitted.
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2010, 01:11:57 pm »

VC is spot on. I will add one of my other observations:

I went through high school like a hot knife through butter. Unchallenged, bored, and rather unstimulated. Most of the more challenging things I did I imposed on myself through the NJROTC program and going through "mini boot camp" and "leadership academy" over my "free" summers. The fact that I never really _rested_ during school is most likely why I am so damn successful now (not a joke).

Listen, I had a GPA of roughly 3.93 in high school and a 3.5 (earning high honors) at my college (avg GPA was ~3.0 due to the rigor).

When I arrived at the Univ of Michigan, I was humbled. The foreign kids, who mind you just showed up off the boat/plane/air balloon, were BLOWING ME OUT OF THE WATER. They knew more math then I ever thought was possible and solved complicated equations like they have seen it 10 times before.

THE AMERICAN SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

The lack of challenge is the problem. Teachers are under-schooled and rewarded for continually shitty performance. Shitty teachers make shitty students, there are a rare few gems that do things _ON THEIR OWN_ like myself that actually get something out of high school besides a 5x3 index card that says you can officially work as a McDonald's floor sweeper, yay! Parents are also very much to blame. Most couldn't give a damn or never succeeded themselves so there is no drive from home. No child left behind was the worst idea in recorded history, it propagated this lack of challenge, lack of work, lack of motivation, yet still "succeed".

Sit down with your grandparents (if you have any left) or go to a nursing home and fire up a conversation about how school was like back in the day. Guaranteed you'll be surprised, also surprised at how much your high school only educated grandparent/elder friend knows. College and graduate school may be to blame for all this, high school is the new elementary school. The expectation is to let the motivated "learn it later" as they move up the educational ladder.
Unfortunately, most never do.
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2010, 02:27:10 pm »

Same thing happens here in the UK. Government targets require so many A-Cs at GCSE (age 16) from as many people as possible so the focus goes onto getting all the dumb kids as close to that as possible. If youre guaranteed 5 A-Cs they wont bother to teach you anything and asume when you get to college (16-18) youll already know what you want to do with your life and learn it all in 2 years before you take exams to see which university you just scraped in to.

On a personal note, i was very much a victim of this system. I was somewhat of a smart kid, my school forced me to take 3 extra subjects and predicted me 14 A*s (which is like yay im going to oxford or cambridge kinda thing). Problem was they just expected me to do it and didnt bother teaching me what i needed in a reasonable manner for me to learn it. So obviously i went of the rails and did a bunch of drugs and wound up with 7 B-Ds :P

Luckily i managed to blag my way into Uni and i worked my ass off for three years for my first class honours BA. KM is completely right, if you dont try you dont get, not many are as lucky as i was.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2010, 02:28:47 pm by Kinky »
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jjmusicnotes

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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2010, 06:10:32 pm »


It is wholly contengent on discipline.  You either have the discipline to pay attention and absorb the lesson, or you don't.  Not even a death in the family changes this fact; it's a popular excuse to miss class, but the truth is quite simply that most of the population lacks the discipline required to set that aside and maintain studies.  There is no right or wrong in this, just an objective fact.


I agree with you for the most part, but it's inaccurate to purport that effectiveness is wholly contingent upon discipline.  For example, it's important to include high and low-incidence disabilities, social variables, environmental variables, and learning styles.  What works for some kids doesn't work for others, and it's up to the teacher to be able to adapt the lesson plan accordingly.

This ties into what KM mentioned about "shitty teachers mak[ing] shitty students."  Some students learn more efficiently aurally while others prefer kinesthetics, or visual cues.  Since everyone unique, it is important for teachers to capitalize on as many different angles for a given subject as possible.


"Transfer", a made-up re-definition of a word, wrapped in quotation marks to emphasise this fact, designed to be highlighted in boldface in a worthless textbook, is an excuse. 

I'm not sure if this is your intention, but this comes across as a little disrespectful.  Calling "transfer" a made-up re-definition of a word is a matter of semantics - you can make the same argument about any vocabulary word.  The whole point of the word's existence is to aide in organizing information.  To talk about it in the fashion that you chose demonstrates how little you know about teaching or about the process of learning.

There is a reason why I don't say anything about programming or coding; because I know absolutely nothing about it.

Here's why: If you base your self-esteem (SELF) on what you can, and do, accomplish, then the phrase "it's not like I'll ever need to know this" is never uttered, since everything learned has the potential to become useful, albeit unexpectedly. 

This is true, but it assumes a lot on the part of a student, such as that they have a healthy self-esteem, are cognizant of their abilities and range of potential accomplishments, and have the foresight to understand the intrinsic potential of information.

Unfortunately, many children don't work this way - particularly in middle school.  These are the same kids that don't understand that it's not healthy to have ice-cream for breakfast, or that they should exercise consistently to maintain a healthy weight as they age, or that they need to drink milk until their 30 in order to achieve maximum bone density.

They don't think about things because they're in the future, and the majority of youth aren't really interested in their future - especially in such a logical and pragmatic way.

Kids are interested in what they can apply to their lives at that moment, and if information is presented in a way that is conducive to their environment, they are more likely to make neurological connections developing relative associations, and are therefore more likely to remember it and utilize that information later on in their life.

I'm sure we've all heard "if you don't use it, you lose it" at some point in our lives.

Kids can't be forced to remember something, but I can have a hand in increasingly the likelihood that they will remember something. 



Exactly how do you propose one capitalize on a cultural value of "smart is bad?"  Excepting, of course, creating a nation of easily-controlled and easily-pacified chattle.  Futhermore, what use is "illustrat[ing] different points of view" when the student's plan for the day is "I will sit here and daydream until the bell rings because school is wasting my TV time"?


That is an important cultural value to consider.  I won't go into deep detail as to how I would approach it, but if you're really interested you could PM me.  In more general terms, the value that you propose is just one of thousands to consider.  For example, different approaches to religion / spirituality, socio-economic status, gender roles, and cultural hierarchal structure are just a few sub-headings of culture that teachers need to address and adapt their lesson plans to reflect.

Ideally, incorporating different points of view is done in a meaningful, interesting, and engaging way.  Even if a student is half-way interested, they're bound to learn something.  If they are as deeply removed from the class as you may suggest, then they may either have an behavioral concern that should be addressed via an IEP, or other extraneous circumstances.

Keeping things in general terms, having more points of view is like having multiple pictures showing different parts of the same object.  You'll see more information that way, and you'll have a more comprehensive understand of that object.  Learning in a similar fashion enables a similar function.

Before distracting ourselves with salary figures, let us establish that, in general, a serious lack of financial discipline has created a madness that mistakes discretionary expenditures for necessary expenditures; e.g., no, you do not HAVE TO afford cable TV, a vacation journey, personal cell phones for every member of the family, or a new vehicle, when you have the option of renting a book from the library, relaxing at home, sharing a phone, or maintaining your current vehicle.  While arguing "more" or "less" money as compensation for higher- or lower-quality work is fine, citing numbers is unfounded without adjustments for the earner's family type, regional cost-of-living, etc.

That's one of the great things about America, is that you can be as obnoxious as you want to be, and as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others, you're welcome to be that way.  I agree that many people spend their money on things that they don't need.  It's easy to poke holes and point fingers, but something that I would like to start seeing are good people that ask questions like, "What are we going to do about it?" and "How can we fix it?"

As for wages or whatever, I just wanted to give you guys an idea (in case you didn't know) of average beginner teacher compensation.  My brother is an Aerospace Engineer, and his beginning salary was....well...let's just say much more comfortable.

That being said, having a lower salary is kind of a good weeding-out mechanism; because obviously people aren't doing it for the money, so they must be doing it for the love of teaching and for the opportunity to influence others' lives.



I definitely agree with you guys that the educational system could be better - I'd love to see music considered a requirement.  That being said, I think it's important to remember that yes, there are a lot of crappy teachers out there, and yes, students are responsible for their own education - as KM mentioned in his anecdote, the most successful education is one that is independent, and self-motivated; and yes, parents can be blamed as well - but there are also very good teachers out there, the ones trying to make a difference, and the ones that genuinely care about their students.

We need more good teachers.
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2010, 06:02:30 pm »

Quote
For example, it's important to include high and low-incidence disabilities, social variables, environmental variables, and learning styles.  What works for some kids doesn't work for others, and it's up to the teacher to be able to adapt the lesson plan accordingly.
Issues like disability are special cases and should be treated as such.  Need for accomodation for 1% of the population does not mean a fix for the other 99% is suddenly invalid.  Social and environmental variables I have already addressed.

Learning styles is one I can speak from with personal experience.  For someone who seems to be really into math, a mighty F on my college record in math would seem anomalous.  Put two next to each other and bricks are shat.  Long story short, the first class I should have dropped because the professor was too old to hear or speak, I thought I could handle it and didn't want to lose the time.  I choose poorly.  The second time through was a replacement professor who was too busy talking about what his grad students were doing.

The textbooks were no good to me.  The single concept that was stonewalling me was explained years later by a 5" x 8" x 0.6" book being thrown away by the local community college.  I read it during jury duty waits and now calc is my playground.  In retrospect it seems embarassingly obvious, but at the time, I simply did not make the assumption that was so "normal" to make that when I asked my teachers about it, they had no clue what I was talking about.

If I were to address the "learning styles" issue, it would be quite simple: ensure that there are at least three textbook options.  I like my books short, dense, and explicit.  (Everything I know about programming I learned from a pocket-guide or short online article.)  Others may be better off with something filled with examples and pretty pictures, and yet others with a "Dummies" guide that is written in the everyday vernacular.

But we can't have that!  We must contracturally guarantee per-class profits for the publishers!  Meanwhile, I consider my success in life irrevocably stunted because I didn't find the world's smallest calculus book before it was too late.

Also, as a side-effect, if students were using different books, they would be asking different questions and sharing different perspectives.  How could we keep those young minds aligned and under control?

Quote
Transfer
Hippie jargon rubs me wrongly.  Ignore my moments of misdirected hostility.  They pass quickly.

Quote
This is true, but it assumes a lot on the part of a student ...
All that follows the ellipses is the responsibility of the parent.  Oh, wait, we traded them for TV and a culture that puts so much focus on public-esteem-by-owning-things that most families have two earners or so much stress that they fracture.  Good job, America!

Quote
For example, different approaches to religion / spirituality, socio-economic status, gender roles, and cultural hierarchal structure are just a few sub-headings of culture that teachers need to address and adapt their lesson plans to reflect.
I think we are facing different directions on this.  My opinion is that tolerating someone who believes in a different diety and tolerating someone who believes that The Bachelor is a more valuable broadcast than Charlie Rose are two seperate issues.

Religion, wealth, and gender are cultural issues, and may come into play at the collegiate level involving certain courses, but they do not play a factor in basic education.  The Flying Spagetti Monster and Allah do not argue about how addition works.  Being poor does not mean you are suddenly incapable of learning to perform math; though it does mean you can't give Texas Instruments their contracturally-guaranteed $90 for a calculator that you should not need.  Being a girl does not make math hard.

We may also be interpreting the concept of "points of view" differently; I am all for attacking a problem from all sides, but I do not see merit in impeding a lesson to leap backwards and repeat it from a different, and possibly conflicting, subjective viewpoint.  That sort of thing belongs exclusively in social studies and humanities classes.  I may be biased, however, due to experiences in my high school epoch.  Let's just say one teacher wanted us to feel a particular way about another culture, and I put it into objective perspective with the style and flair you would expect from me.  (Known as a "hard-ass" teacher, she and I got along quite well after that.)

Quote
We need more good teachers.
We need fewer bad ones.  Even middling teachers would be acceptable as long as they operate under supervision to ensure that they are getting the job done.  What is killing us is the bad teachers that are being ignored because of politics.  They are releasing students who did not learn the course material, and they arrive on the doorstep of the next teacher with holes in their heads; even a great teacher cannot mend them while moving forward.

Overall, the ratio of bad:okay:great teachers in my history is probably 1:6:3.  But those one in ten devistated the lives of myself and every other student who was condemned to cross his and her paths.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 06:09:55 pm by Viashino Cutthroat »
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jjmusicnotes

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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2010, 07:27:28 pm »

Need for accomodation for 1% of the population does not mean a fix for the other 99% is suddenly invalid.

Actually, the percentage is closer to 20% of the student population, and that percentage only pertains to students with some form of disability.  The other 80% of students require adaptation as well, but of a different nature.

Learning styles is one I can speak from with personal experience. 

 I like my books short, dense, and explicit.  (Everything I know about programming I learned from a pocket-guide or short online article.)

Meanwhile, I consider my success in life irrevocably stunted because I didn't find the world's smallest calculus book before it was too late.

It's really cool that you were able to figure what worked for you - albeit a little later than what would have been convenient.  This is what I was referring to about teachers adapting education to make information relative to students - both in practicality as well as presentation. 

It's really unfortunate that the majority of teachers (as well as people's expectations of teachers,) illustrate someone at the front of a room monotonously driveling through textbook material.  That's stale teaching, and stale teaching is going to yield stale students.

Oh, wait, we traded them for TV and a culture that puts so much focus on public-esteem-by-owning-things that most families have two earners or so much stress that they fracture.

Agreed.

The Flying Spagetti Monster and Allah do not argue about how addition works.  Being poor does not mean you are suddenly incapable of learning to perform math;

No, but a student that comes from a culture where it's rude to make eye contact or discouraged to ask questions or contribute are all intrinsic cultural traits that not only affect the relationship between the student and teacher, but also the student's ability to learn.

We may also be interpreting the concept of "points of view" differently;

You are right, we are!  :P  I was referring to presenting things aurally, visually, kinesthetically, and tactilely.

Overall, the ratio of bad:okay:great teachers in my history is probably 1:6:3.  But those one in ten devistated the lives of myself and every other student who was condemned to cross his and her paths.

Aye.  It's amazing how 1 poor teacher can supersede 6 good ones.  If you ask people what they thought of certain teachers they had, no one will tell you "Oh, this one had a great lesson plan on Manifest Destiny."  You'll hear stuff like, "oh he was hilarious," or "she was such a jerk."  Students remember the quality of the content of the teacher's character more than anything they taught them.

To think that teachers are only responsible for teaching what's in a book is ridiculous.
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2010, 07:53:40 pm »

Quote
the percentage is closer to 20%
Hippy definitions of "disability" don't apply in my presence.  Diabled means "too blind to read" or "can't hear instruction," or "autistic to a degree that any significant sensory input triggers an incapacitating reaction," not "doesn't sit down because it doesn't want to sit and isn't punished for misbehaving" or "is quieter when on medication."  Everyone gets a different set of challenges at different levels of difficulty, and whatever they may be, only you can truly overcome them and survive as an independant being; you have to draw the line somewhere on this issue.  I put it behind "could use assistance" and before "must have assistance."

Quote
That's stale teaching
Verily.  The students should be studying the book and using the teacher as a clarification and example-demonstration tool.  So many high school hours I can remember being squandered taking turns reading a paragraph from the book.  Good lord.  That is what we did in kindergarten, because the lesson plan was "learn to read."

Quote
a student that comes from a culture where it's rude to make eye contact or discouraged to ask questions or contribute are all intrinsic cultural traits that not only affect the relationship between the student and teacher, but also the student's ability to learn.
True.  The solution is to excise those particular traits from that culture and replace them with methods that work in the person's favor.  Ever hear the phrase "melting pot" in reference to the early United States, particularly during the heavy-immigration period?  That was an era of mixing dozens of cultures, and for each aspect, choosing one or two of the dozen that work well.  The ones that qualified became the unique American culture.  Indeed, it has been an endless competition between desire to advance and desire to maintain tradition, but all-in-all it was working pretty well until suddenly it became politically illegal to say "I think my way is better, why don't you try it?"  It takes a little humility to admit the way Your People do things isn't perfect, but as with the teacher issue, fixing one small problem often leads to a great overall improvement.

Quote
To think that teachers are only responsible for teaching what's in a book is ridiculous.
Not when you are a school-board member who would rather deal with parent complaints by saying "we'll get a better book next year; btw, raising taxes to pay for new books lol" than admitting that you have a lame teacher, who needs to somehow be replaced despite the union that stands behind him.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2010, 07:56:04 pm by Viashino Cutthroat »
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #24 on: November 02, 2010, 04:05:20 pm »

Voting day!
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2010, 07:56:28 pm »

Don't you mean...
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2010, 08:13:39 pm »

So many high school hours I can remember being squandered taking turns reading a paragraph from the book.
FFFUUUUU I hated that 6th-grade reading level-sounding rage-inducing bullshit... Only a third of the people in the room sounded like they belonged in the room.
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2010, 10:57:41 pm »

  So many high school hours I can remember being squandered taking turns reading a paragraph from the book.  Good lord.  That is what we did in kindergarten, because the lesson plan was "learn to read."

Im 22 and we still do this at College in a few of my classes. Professor is like to me read the next paragraph son. Wish I could throw the book at his face!!!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2010, 10:59:48 pm by osaeed2k9 »
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Re: President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2010, 09:13:24 pm »

My parents by-passed all that stuff and just home schooled me. It has its pro's and cons, but you don't really have to deal with shitty teachers... lol.
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