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[andrewjneis]

Okay, then. Here is the general gameplay rules of THUNDERBALL, re-written:

-In this gamemode, a random person is assigned the Thunderball, which will explode in 30 seconds. If it explodes on you, you lose all of your kill points! So pass it off to someone else by throwing/launching it at them. It will stick to them and become their problem...unless they fling it back at you.
Players pass around the Thunderball, while fighting each other off and getting kill points. When the thunderball explodes, it kills the person last holding it and they lose all their kill points, then the thunderball is randomly re-assigned to someone new.
If the thunderball is passed/stuck to you, you are notified by a text, "You have the thunderball!" and a timer counting down the time until it detonates. You are also given a special color on the radar to notify players of where the thunderball holder is at.
To use the thunderball, select like you would any other weapon, and try to hit another player with it. If you hit, it will stick to them. If you miss, it comes back to you. However, you may still use other weapons to get kills and earn points, just be wary of when the ball will go off, and your proximity to other players to get rid of it. Kills made while holding the thunderball count for 2 points, so if you're good, you might want to get the thunderball rather than rid of it.
While you don't have the thunderball, you are free to get kill points, but they only count for 1 point. Hopefully you can keep those points until the end of the round, unless you get the thunderball and fail to pass it before it explodes...
The bomb time changes depending on the number of players.
-4 Player time limit: 60 seconds.
-8 Player time limit: 45 seconds.
-16 player time limit: 30 seconds.
-32 player time limit: 15 seconds.

The winner of the game is the player with the most kill points.

Teamplay:
None

Short Description:
Players pass around a bomb that will detonate in a set time. If you are holding it when it goes off, you will lose all your kill points. Kills made while holding the ball count for 2 points. Don't get caught with it when it goes off!

Gameplay balance:
Because kills made while holding the thunderball count for double, a skilled player with the thunderball that's willing to take the risk of getting caught with it can make a good amount of points comparable with a player trying to avoid the thunderball and make kills that count for 1 point only.

And per your request, a layout from when you start a game to the end of the match:

Connecting to server (192.184.288.2)....
Connected to server 192.184.288.2
Player 1 has connected
Player 1 is now playing as Boris
ParkourCourier has joined the game
ParkourCourier has connected from United States
ParkourCourier is now playing as May Day
Round Restarting...
The gamemode is now: Thunderball
The weaponset is now: Automatics
Player 1 has the thunderball!
-----PLAYER 1 VIEW---"You have the Thunderball! Time Left: 00:60"
ParkourCourier killed Player 1 with DD44. Score=1
-----PLAYER 1 RESPAWNS...VIEW---"You have the Thunderball! Time Left: 00:28"
Player 1 killed ParkourCourier with D5K. Score=2
Player 1 got 2 kill points for: Kill made with Thunderball
-----PLAYER 1 VIEW---"You have the Thunderball! Time Left: 00:18"
-----ParkourCourier Respawns
Player 1 passed the thunderball to ParkourCourier!
-----PARKOURCOURIER VIEW---"You Have the Thunderball! Time Left: 00:07"
Player 1 and Parkour courier are having a shootout. ParkourCourier takes out the thunderball and launches it, sticking it to Player 1.
-----PLAYER 1 VIEW---"You have the Thunderball! Time Left: 00:01"
The Thunderball explodes on Player 1!
Player 1 got hot-potatowned!
Player 1 Score=0.
Chat|Player 1 : *K.I.A.* Dammit.
ParkourCourier has the Thunderball!
----PARKOURCOURIER VIEW---"You have the Thunderball! Time Left: 00:60"

ParkourCourier searches around for Player 1 for 20 seconds. After finding him, they end up in a gunfight. When ParkourCourier's health starts getting low, he starts trying to pass off the Thunderball. He sticks it to Player 1, and then tries to kill him with PP7 (Silenced), but Player 1 gets the Armor. He then notices that the time is almost up. He takes the ball out and sticks it back to ParkourCourier. ParkourCourier can't decide if he wants to kills Player 1 and then try to pass off the ball to another player in the nick of time, or take the thunderball back out and try and stick it back on Player 1. He runs out of time deciding and Player 1 kills him. He gains 1 kill point. When he respawns, he has 5 seconds left on the thunderball. It explodes on him. He loses his 1 kill point. Now let's say the clock is out at this point.

Round Ending...
Player 1 wins with: 1 point.
ParkourCourier : gg
Player 1 : GG
Player 1 left the game. (Disconnect by user)

[killermonkey]

Wow. Now thats what I call a sales pitch! Well done Andrew.

Ok, so now that this is well defined we can nitpick because frankly, the next step is coding it.

Issue 1: You are guaranteed that someone will lose all their points everytime the thunderball counter goes down. This is a problem for me because that means you will get people with 20 points from regular kills and the guy who was getting 40 points lost them all and the guy who never participated in the gameplay just won. How about instead, you only lose your "thunderball points (TBP)". Regular kills and previous TBPs still form a foundation for your round (TBPs are locked after each thunderball detonation).

Issue 2: Thunderball points double the normal kills. That seems a bit much, especially considering someone with the thunderball and RCP-90 / proxy mines. How about a scaled thunderball point system. Hand-To-Hand -> 6x, Pistols -> 4x, Rifles -> 2x, "Special" weapons -> 1x.

Issue 3: Range of the thunderball and attack speed. No doubt I will have to do some C++ magic to get this fully implemented since right now tokens can only be short range melee, but not much really. Well how far does my thunderball reach? Is this also a function of the player count? I really like your scaling of the thunderball detonate time.

Issue 4: What happens when the guy with the tunderball gets killed? Does the thunderball timer pause until he respawns? Does the player that killed him get the thunderball instantly? My main issue is if I have thunderball and respawn across the map I am guaranteed to lose, and that is not fun. On the other hand, if I get killed with thunderball and a cut of my thunderball points is taken and the ball goes to my attacker, that seems a bit more fair.

All in all, AWESOME work, lets keep this ball rolling. We can definitely get a working prototype implemented fairly quickly in v4.1 code.

[major]

One thing I see people raging over is the ball keeps counting down when passed. Now when your stuck does it auto switch to the ball? One thing I think would be nice is when your stuck, the text pops up as well as the countdown time, but it doesn't automatically start counting down, if flashes a couple time(Like the effect with the teamplay point counter flashing, maybe even changes color) giving the play just a few seconds to switch to the ball if he wants to get rid of it fast.

Also how is the ball passed? thrown? slapped on? If thrown, what if the player misses? does the ball fly back to them?


If thrown a cool/funny feature would be if a player shoots the ball when its being passed to him, the ball gets blown back into the throwers face; auto detonating. Or maybe just its just shot back into the throwers face, subtracting a few seconds off the timer.

Maybe armor should have a special ability in this gamemode. Possibly if you have armor you get +5 seconds added to the timer for half armor, and +7 seconds added for full armor. Would keep the gameplay element of going for armor alive. Or if KM feels like really coding, he could set up a ratio of armor to time added. Less armor you have, less time is added.

But I can see this being a pretty fun and rather intuitive gamemode, which is nice.

[Jonathon [SSL]]

I'd love to make a sweet Thunderball particle explosion.

[Entropy-Soldier]

Main problem i see with this is the fact that the Thunderball holder will be absurdly easy to avoid unless you're unlucky enough to spawn near him.  instead of saying "LOL HERE'S THE GUY YOU NEED TO AVOID"  on the radar with a nice yellow dot, perhaps remove him from it entirely.  This makes it difficult to track the Thunderball holder, but easy to identify him as he'll appear in areas which the radar identifies as vacant.

Another thing i really don't care for is the loss of your score.  How would yolt or LALD work if you didn't get eliminated, but just lost your points?  It would basically turn into Deathmatch with a gimmick on the side rather than having the new element the focus of gameplay.  With the radar adjustment, even when only a few players are left, a keen token holder should have no difficulty passing off the Thunderball to his foes.


In regards to the timer: when the ball is initially spawned, it should use the variable timer you've set up.  Then, every time it is passed off to another player, add a fourth of the initial fuse to the current time.  This should ensure the person has at least a few moments to pass the ball off to someone else if they're quick enough.  Obviously, to prevent a game of pass-off between two players maxing out the timer to 999 minutes, cap it at the original fuse value.

[VC]

VC in the house.  Watch as problems disappear.  Arbitrary constants subject to beta testing.


Thunderball is a Unique Weapon (like Golden Gun in MWtGG) and spawns accordingly.

Thunderball timer is set according to the weapon respawn function times a randomised scaling value.  (The weapon-respawn function already compensates for player count, so Thunderball will have a longer fuse with fewer players, ensuring you can find someone to pass it to.)

Weapon behavior is hit-scan, unlimited range.  If the trace is successful, the server will switch posession, and draw a phony animation of the ball jumping to the next player.  Because of latency compensation, it may jump through walls occasionally, but it doesn't care because it's the god damn thunderball.  If the trace is unsuccessful, the Thunderball will not change hands.

Thunderball has a momentum counter that increments on successful passes, beginning at 1, and a last-passer field indicating who threw it last, initialized on the player who takes it from the spawnpoint.  Thunderball also gains a momentum count whenever the holder kills a player with a normal weapon.

Thunderball has a cool-down time of one second.

Re. Entropy: You just had a derp moment despite noticing it when you were writing your post.  If you increase fuse on passing, then two griefers can stand next to each other, pass back and forth, and it never goes off because it's pegged at $MAX_FUSE.

The watch will chirp when the Thunderball timer is five seconds from detonating.  This is the ONLY WARNING.  (Otherwise, people will just hold the ball until they know it's about to pop and sling it for points.  The thunderball must be dangerous to hold by not letting you know if you need to get rid of it until it's almost too late.)

If a player dies by normal damage while carrying the Thunderball, the dropped Thunderball retains its momentum count, its last-passer field is reset to World (to be changed to whoever picks it from the ground), and its timer is reset to the normal spawn time.  (This allows a player to kill the thunderball carrier and steal the accumulated momentum without getting so short a fuse that it would be suicidal.)

Deathmatch scoring rules apply at all times, including Thunderball-related incidents.

When the thunderball detonates, frags are awarded thus:
floor(sqrt(active_players * momentum_counter * players_killed_by_thunderball_explosion)) + Normal DM credit for fragged players
This function ensures that the Thunderball gains in value in full servers where frags are easy to find, makes heavily-used Thunderballs gain value, and rewards multi-kills.
In case of suicide by getting the Thunderball but never successfully passing it off, the same function applies, however, the Thunderball credit is subtracted instead of added, and the players_killed parameter is 1, even if other players died in the blast.
Players killed normally while holding the Thunderball may be penalised. (Beta testing will determine this.)

Related Achievements:
Blunderball: Pick up the Thunderball, try and fail to pass it, and be destroyed by it, while killing no other players after getting the Thunderball.
Thunderclap: Kill the Thunderball carrier with slappers.
Nice Catch: Be destroyed by a Thunderball that had less than one second on its fuse when you received it.
Alley Oop: Receive the Thunderball while in the air and immediately pass it off to a third player.
From Downtown: Pass the Thunderball to a player over 50 metres away.  (Analogous to SharpSh00ta achievement)

Comments:
This might be workable, but it will need to be played out with griefy people to ensure there are no gamebreaking holes in the rules-set that makes the game about exploiting one rule, or turns it into a "the only way to win is to not play" situation.

[Entropy-Soldier]

Re. Entropy: You just had a derp moment despite noticing it when you were writing your post.  If you increase fuse on passing, then two griefers can stand next to each other, pass back and forth, and it never goes off because it's pegged at $MAX_FUSE.

Because, you know, doing that makes you invincible and no-one else in the server can come and kill you.  Of course, you could say that if they're the last two people in the match then they could pull it off, but by then i figure that the match time would be almost up anyway(on a full server) so you might be able to prolong the match by 2 minutes and get yelled at by everyone.  Great Job.  And that's if the elimination mechanic is kept. If we decide to go with another gimmick, then that's irrelevant as the two greifers will be quickly owned with a single magnum headshot because they're just making out with the Thunderball in a corner.


That being said, a hitscan Thunderball would just be absurd as you could pass off in less time than it would take to kill someone, and they could pass it back just as quick.  you wouldn't need two greifers to abuse that mechanic, it would happen practically every time two people got together in a room with the Thunderball.  Of course, due to source and it's crappy netcode for projectile weapons, a physical Thunderball would work about as well as throwing knives do except it will be very obvious when it goes through people.  With correct compensation, it could play out okay and would be better than two people tagging each other from across runway for the duration of the match.

[VC]

In your first paragraph, you are attempting to bandage the problem with circumstantial excuses.  We can cure the disease of two-man passing by simply excising the mechanic that makes it a problem.  Hell, you didn't even apparently consider a third griefer could cover the Facility bathroom access with the map's power weapon while Thing 1 and Thing 2 toss the old ball around in the vent, and even if someone got through that, the timer is at max, so they just kill whoever gets in and go back to tossing salad.

Elimination needs to go, or all other weapons need to go.

You did not read, apparently, that a cooldown time (part of the normal weapon mechanism) would be used to throttle pass frequency.  Did you really expect that I did not consider two people standing still and clicking on each other?  Under my schedule, doing so would build a lot of momentum on the Thunderball, making the strongest strategy to throw it to a distracted third party once the alarm goes off so it won't come back and you get a large bounty.

Also, since the Thunderball knows who held it last, the game can detect pass-back behavior and punish it appropriately.

[Entropy-Soldier]

In your first paragraph, you are attempting to bandage the problem with circumstantial excuses.  We can cure the disease of two-man passing by simply excising the mechanic that makes it a problem.  Hell, you didn't even apparently consider a third griefer could cover the Facility bathroom access with the map's power weapon while Thing 1 and Thing 2 toss the old ball around in the vent, and even if someone got through that, the timer is at max, so they just kill whoever gets in and go back to tossing salad.

Any Gamemode with a token or elimination aspect can be greifed like this.

Elimination needs to go, or all other weapons need to go.

Yeah, i agree.  Would turn into deathmatch with a ton of people wondering what the beep was and why they suddenly can't respawn.  I would say your scoring method works better than elimination for public server play, just other elements of the proposal caused issues for me.

You did not read, apparently, that a cooldown time (part of the normal weapon mechanism) would be used to throttle pass frequency.  Did you really expect that I did not consider two people standing still and clicking on each other?  Under my schedule, doing so would build a lot of momentum on the Thunderball, making the strongest strategy to throw it to a distracted third party once the alarm goes off so it won't come back and you get a large bounty.

Also, since the Thunderball knows who held it last, the game can detect pass-back behavior and punish it appropriately.

I did notice the cooldown mechanic, and dismissed it as irrelevant to that circumstance considering it's only stopping me from throwing it back to the guy who just gave it to me for about the time it would take me to switch to it.  Having said that, it's not something you can really punish as it's more of a reflexive behavior to toss it to the closest person, which in most cases is the guy who just gave it to you.  Once everyone catches on to the fact that the Thunderball is being passed back and forth in some corner of the map, everyone will just avoid them until it goes off.

Maybe adding slight damage every pass would fix this in most cases, but you would still end up with the two players passing it off over and over again until one collapses from the continued damage, and the other one is left with 2 bars.

[killermonkey]

Listen, I like the discussion but we are over complicating the gameplay before it is even in draft form. Let's stick to the original mechanics and see how it works >>IN GENERAL<< and then we can build the specific rule set.

I don't like the hit-scan passing at all, if anything it should be bounded by some sort of a range. Not including a count down timer is an interesting idea and works well with the point bonus for kills while holding it because you can't easily time your release of the thunderball. Although it would be more interesting if the beep occurred at a random time between 5-10 seconds before detonation such that you get anxious.

Edit: On third read, VC, I noticed you did away with the normal weapon kill bonus while holding thunderball and instead opted for some sort of points based on passing momentum and last person to pass it.

[VC]

Any scenario can be griefed, any game can be griefed, but that is no reason to not take measures to eliminate every griefing mechanism possible and take measures to inhibit what cannot be stopped.  (I spotted another way for the three-man to work, albeit with greater difficulty, under my ruleset.  I have a bandage in mind, but it is technical/behind-the-scenes shit so if we get that far I'll just inform KM.)

Actually, the cooldown is to prevent click-spamming.  Since you need a hitscan success to pass, people will naturally clickspam while hovering near the target.  But, if the player clicks and sees Bond feint-throw because it wasn't a hit (pro-tip: use +aimmode), and have to wait for him to prepare his throw again, players recognize that they have to make it count or they'll be stuck with it.

Furthermore, the strategy quickly becomes to throw it to someone who doesn't see you and to get around a corner so it can't come back.

I considered damage on a failed throw, but that doesn't fix any problems and introduces further complication, such as not being able to drop someone below a certain amount to avoid "well I fuking tried to throw it this shit sucks" *disconnect*

[VC]

"before it is even in draft form"
It is in draft form.  I drafted it.  See that up there?  Touched by the citrusy finger of creation itself.

"I don't like the hit-scan passing at all, if anything it should be bounded by some sort of a range."
Hold on while I think about how physics weapons in Source.  TF2's bat, TF2's reflected rockets, GES throwing knives.  Now I take a deep breath.
BAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA...... you really want to code a physics item into GES, and make nearly all throws in the game misses, having the Thunderball spontaneously warp back to the previous holder each time, have the timer expire with it in-flight or while it's rolling around after missing, and make Runway self-griefing by making it impossible to get rid of the Thunderball because everyone is over 9000 metres away.
...AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

"Although it would be more interesting if the beep occurred at a random time between 5-10 seconds before detonation such that you get anxious."
Approved.  It should be enough that there are even-odds that the receiver can return it and stick you with it.

Edit: Indeed.  Instead of being a frag amp, you build potential for points, but if you fumble the Thunderball or pass it before (or after ) it's properly cooked, someone else can snag those points.  This keeps the focus on the Thunderball.  Otherwise, you're just trying to roll up bonus points in surplus of what you would lose for a suicide, which is normally one in a non-elimination scenario.

[Entropy-Soldier]

Runway would be a problem regardless considering if anyone spawns in the middle of the level, they can expect to have that Thunderball in a matter of seconds.  I still support a physical object despite knowing sources quirks with them, it would just play better than "Tag, you're it!" from across the room right as you spawn.  Of course, both methods are sure to cause rage, but i would rather have to throw the ball twice to hit someone rather than spawn in the facility bottling room, get tagged, and then have my attacker disappear through a door across the room leaving me with no hope of passing the Thunderball to someone else, unless they spawn in the same room and allow me to repeat the action to them.

[VC]

How does having a physical ball fix your being stuck in the bottling room and not understanding how to walk to the door, open it, and find someone to tag?

[Entropy-Soldier]

well, I'd assume it wouldn't interfere with my ability to see something coming at me with a timer in the 15 second range and step out of the way.


It's not like i don't know B opens doors or anything...or is that A+Z?