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[andrewjneis]

I had some ideas about a couple of new gameplay scenarios, which I think would be really fun:

1. A VIEW TO A KILL - In this gamemode, you score points for every zoomed-in kill you make. Regular kills either won't count or only count for 1/2. This would be a really challenging gamemode because you have to be zoomed in to get the points, and require skill. Obviously the weaponsets would have to be the rifles, however, since the Moonraker Laser has a scope, I figure it should be able to zoom in just for this gamemode.

2. THUNDERBALL - This is sort of like a 'hot potato' game. One person starts with the thunderball, which is a sticky bomb on a chain. It blows up in 30 seconds, so you have to try and fling it as someone and if it hits them, it sticks to them and they now must try and fling it to someone else. It would be like a weapon, so you have to take it out to use it, but you can still use other weapons if you're not close enough. If you miss, it comes back to you on the chain, and you can try again. Once it explodes on someone, they are eliminated, and then someone else it randomly given a new thunderball. So everyone passes around the thunderball like a hot potato, all while fighting each other off at the same time. You can shoot the person with the ball and they'll die and respawn, as long as they still have time left on the thunderball.

3. FOR YOUR EYES ONLY - In this gamemode, someone is randomly picked to be an assassin, but nobody else is made aware of it, only the assassin. It's supposed to be a mystery as to who it is; you can only find out by getting killed by him, killing him, or watching carefully. Once the assassin kills you, you are eliminated. However, if you kill the assassin, you become the new assassin, and can eliminate people. The old assassin is not eliminated when killed the first time, but becomes a regular player once they have lost the assassin title and can be eliminated. The round ends when one person if left standing. So you'll need to pay attention as to who gets killed, and if you don't see them in play anymore, remember the last person that killed them. However, there would have to be some sort of way to, once you get eliminated, disable your voice/text chat, because you'd of course have those players that will blab as to who the assassin is and give it away/try to help. I think this gamemode would be really, really fun and would love to see this and Thunderball implemented.

4. MOST PROFESSIONAL - There can probably be a better name for this, but the concept is that you get points based on the least amount of shots it takes you to kill someone, and the style you kill them in. Kind of based off the Most Honorable/Most Professional/Marksmanship award. So getting more and more kills with low health would earn you more points, world/explosion kills would earn more points, and each weapon could have a point value assigned to it according to shots left over. So if you get a kill with the PP7 and use 6/7 shots, you only get one point, but if you use 2/7 shots you get 5. The Klobb would be an excellent weapon because it has 20 shots, and a kill with 5 shots of the Klobb means 15 points for you, or if you happen to get lucky and finish off an opponent with one shot of the Klobb you'd get 19 points. This gamemode would make the Klobb a valuable, and desired, weapon.

Any thoughts?

[mookie]

#3 actually seems pretty good.

[VC]

Okay, I had a huge wall-o-text here, but connection fail dumped it so I'm enabling Fast Animations; all tact and workarounds are out the window, so this will read like raging critism, which from me is probably what you should expect, anyway.

1: Bad because it limits weapon selection, which makes the scenario repetitive and stale.  Also, people don't like needing to bring up iron sights all the time; it smacks of "realism" games, and we're trying to be an alternative to that trend.

2: Cute idea but it is broken by maps that are so large you might not be able to find a target for the potato between spawning with it and it running out of time, and in close quarters, the physics may make drawing the chain more trouble than KM will think it is worth.  Even if we cheat by removing visual detail, the thunderball is a bad weapon compared to BULLET so it has no offensive value and just kills people from time to time.  Someone with it would rather just kill people using gun then suicide-bomber with it than throw the damn thing.  Without a mechanic to make having and using the ball desirable, this secenario doesn't work.  When I try to envision this concept in play, I keep being reminded of the HL2 Combine Energy Orb, except the enemy throws it back to you and it only hurts people when it does that wubbawubbawoobaweebawabababaBOOM thing.

3: This is Live and Let Die except even more confusing for new players, since there is no big obvious thing, like the model change and people spamming "shoot the baron idiot" in chat, telling them that so-and-so is the critical player, and it does not even provide something for non-critical players to do (L&LD has chasing the guy with the AuG) since they don't know who to kill to turn on earning-points.  People will be running around DM-ing it, walk right by the assassin, get killed, then rage that "that guy got a point, I killed eight people, why didn't I get a point and WHY CANT I RESPAWN!"  This idea isn't awful, but it is not leading into fresh territory or avoiding problems we already find in existing scenarios.

4: I like the idea of rewarding technical skill over raw fragging, but our stats system is very jury-rigged and I wouldn't use it to prop up a table with a short leg, moreless an actual scenario.  I understand what you are trying to communicate, but you clearly didn't think it through.  Reload RC-P90, shoot a guy with 88% health in the head using one bullet, +79 points.  Even if you spam a burst and get a lucky headshot, it will be +70.  Let's look at just Power Weapons and the score ceilings.  PP7: +6, CMag: +5, AShot: +4, Phantom +49, RCP: +79, Slap/Knife: +∞?  I could probably make a function that would evaluate based on weapon power, rate of fire, baseline accuracy, ammo capacity, actual damage dealt, and the flow of the tides of the Atlantic Ocean along the shores of West Palm Beach, Florida, but it would still feel very arbitrary, and it would be almost impossible to prevent explotation of the mechanic.


Yes, this is the short version.

[Jeron [SharpSh00tah]]

the shores of West Palm Beach, Florida

That's Me

[andrewjneis]

I thought about the RC-P90 when thinking of the MOST PROFESSIONAL scenario, I just forgot to write it down. So weapons with massive damage & magazine catridges would have to be edited so that you only get points per damage, so like you said, RC-P90 would only give 1 or two points, not 79. Slappers would be edited as well for a +5 or something.

FOR YOUR EYES ONLY - I also had this thought but I didn't put it down because I liked the mystery idea better. But if we're going along the lines of people not reading directions and knowing what to do, then one character is made Bond and he is the assassin, then once taken out someone else becomes Bond. I personally think it's  a lot different than Live and Let Die because you get more of a chance to be Bond without waiting whole rounds for a random selection, often times the same person is picked for Samedi in Live and Let Die in a server full of 14 people. So then we have the problem of people getting killed right off the bat and not being able to respawn and sitting out the whole round and then quitting - well let's change the rules. Instead of being eliminated, let's do this: The assassin scores points for kills, when you kill the assassin you become the assassin and can score points. I'm thinking you keep the points you have, not steal them all. That way, we can both A) keep the mystery element, and B) have something for other players to do (seek out the assassin and keep it a secret to yourself so you can get points). Maybe we could even add one person who randomly knows who the assassin is and is a Target like in Perfect Dark.
I think this scenario works a lot differently than live and let die because it's more of a TAG game like "Flag Tag" should be.

THUNDERBALL - Well the thunderball doesn;t explode and hurt people nearby it just eliminates the person. But I don't understand how the want to not get eliminated from the round would make people desire to get rid of the potato. But if you think it won't work, then let's change it to this: If the thunderball explodes on you, then you lose all your kill points. I think that would be fair & fun, that way no one is eliminated.
You don't have to animate the chain. The point is just that it comes back to you, you can't just toss it to the ground. But I had the idea from the James Bond Thunderball novel, it had a ball on a chain kind of thing. I think the movie had some underwater exploding balls on chains too.
And if the time is too short for large maps, why not increase the time?


VIEW TO A KILL - I see about the realism we're trying to stay away from. That one I agree with you on. Perhaps then either all weapons could zoom or Zoomed kills would give you a temporary speed boost or something like that. Or collect 10 zoomed kills and it refills your armor. Something.

[killermonkey]

A VIEW TO A KILL - What? This sounds like deathmatch with "reward" for actually playing the game correctly. Does it really make a difference if I kill you zoomed in or out? Where is the fun (beyond DM)?

THUNDERBALL - I really really dislike this one. It doesn't have much incentive, unless you are the unlucky bastard who has the flaming ball of death. Otherwise I am just tooling around doing much of nothing except AVOIDING. There isn't even incentive for me to kill the bastard with the flaming death ball since he'll incur a much worse punishment if I just let him keep it. It's like the inverse of MWGG, without the fun skill.

FOR YOUR EYES ONLY - Already done, and done quite well: http://forums.goldeneyesource.net/index.php/topic,5202.0.html

MOST PROFESSIONAL - Ugh, VC summed it up. Again, this one reminded me of the first. Where is the skill or the reason behind it? What if I kill someone with a Klobb who has 5 HP left, and i hit them in the leg? Did I really deserve all 19 points? NO. It is arbitrary and not all that much fun.

Don't let us discourage you from getting ideas. Realize that you are in the shark bowl once you post them though I hope I was constructive enough and pointed out the obvious weaknesses in the game modes. I am also not professing that our current ones are at all perfect (besides the basic ones of course).

When developing the concept of a game mode it is absolutely imperative that you keep three things in mind:

• Reason - You have to have a reason to WANT to play it. Earning points is not a reason. A reason is something someone feels when they play, that sense of urgency and heart pumping action when they are getting those elusive points! Such as in LALD you gather the GG and race after the Baron all the while dodging fellow Bonds and the Baron himself. It's rather exhilarating to make that kill!
• Audience - Who will be playing this? Noobs or Pros or Both? You have to tailor your gameplay to several different parties, LAN is another example, teamplay, etc. Your gamemode should work across the spectrum and also work with 2 players up to 32 players.
• Griefing - You have to take into account those people who do not play the mode correctly, are naive, or are simply trying to cheat the system. Griefing is a real big concern, especially if your audience is Pros. There has to be a built in mechanic to discourage invalid gameplay as well as detect and punish those that try to circumvent the rules. Read on Yeyinde's mode for example of anti-griefing mechanic.

[andrewjneis]

Well, I see what you mean with the other gameplay types, but I fail to see how Thunderball does not have a reason or fun behind it. Let me give you a comparison. There is a strength game I have the students in my parkour classes play for fun. So each student stands on a balance beam, and passes around a heavy medicine ball. I count down from 30 seconds and whoever is holding the ball when time's up is the hot potato and must do 5 pushups and 5 situps. Now, while the ball is being passed around, if a student misses the catch or drops the ball, EVERYONE must do 5 pushups. If someone falls off the balance beam, then everyone must do 5 situps.
So the incentive here is:
A) Pass the ball around QUICKLY so you don't end up hot potato;
B) Keep your focus on balancing and catching so everyone doesn't do strength;
C) Watch the game and time your throws if you don't want to end up on the receiving catch when time's up.

So comparing this to Thunderball:
A) Pass the ball and get it out of your possession QUICKLY,
B) Keep your eye on the guy with the hot potato and steer clear of him, and eliminate people in your way that will cause a distraction or kill you and cause a respawn closer to the hot potato, as well as gain those points for the win.
C) time your own throw if you have the hot potato, or kill the guy with the hot potato and keep him at bay from you. He'll respawn by someone else.

I think it would be really fun. So to eliminate the greifing/confusion, we make it so that you're not eliminated if you die but you lose all your kill points. That way you have reason for the other players to play:
1) Get points!
2) Don't lose those points!
3) If you can make a lot of kills AND keep the guy with the thunderball away from you, or pass it on to someone else and get rid of it, you can win the game!
4) If you get the Thunderball, pass it to someone else at the last moment and watch them go out. That's a pretty awesome kill right there and you did it in style. Perhaps if you pass it to someone and they get killed by it, then you could get an extra point or two for that special kill.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Thunderball does have those three things you're talking about. Noobs could play this game easily, it's hot potato! Plus you don't have to worry about elimination and WHY AM I NOT SPAWNING.

I think this gamemode would be really, really fun. It's heart pounding like You Only Live Twice is: You've got the thunderball. GET RID OF IT! Oh my god the guy is trying to stick the thunderball on you. GET HIM THE HELL AWAY FROM YOU! OR RUN AWAY! OR RUN THROUGH A CROWD AND DISTRACT HIM WITH SOMEONE ELSE! hahaha. I would love to play that.

[killermonkey]

Ah but you see you have changed the fundamentals of the game since your original idea. You thought it through and realized that some basic mechanics would make the game a FAIL. This is what I am talking about, this is the thought process and tinkering that needs to be done. It's what we did with Assassin and it turned out amazing. It's what we did with all our advanced game plays in v4.1 to make them more engaging and fun.

Rewrite a complete breakdown of Thunderball. Start from the time I connect to the server to when the match ends. Go through the motions of a complete round. Sketch out what changes need to be made when I have 2 vs 8 vs 16 vs 32 players. Is there the ability for teamplay, if so how will it maintain the gameplay mechanic (dodgeball?).

After sketching it out from start to finish you need to figure out implementation. How do i notify players of the carrier of the thunderball? How does the thunderball owner know they have it? How do we know when the thunderball is going to go off? Do all the players know that?

If you can sketch all these details out it might be picked up by an entrepreneurial python writer.

[CCsaint10]

I hope you can write this out Andrew. Your thunderball idea sounds pretty awesome man.