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President Obama: School year must be extended by month for US students

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jjmusicnotes:

--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 02, 2010, 12:37:50 am ---
It is wholly contengent on discipline.  You either have the discipline to pay attention and absorb the lesson, or you don't.  Not even a death in the family changes this fact; it's a popular excuse to miss class, but the truth is quite simply that most of the population lacks the discipline required to set that aside and maintain studies.  There is no right or wrong in this, just an objective fact.


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I agree with you for the most part, but it's inaccurate to purport that effectiveness is wholly contingent upon discipline.  For example, it's important to include high and low-incidence disabilities, social variables, environmental variables, and learning styles.  What works for some kids doesn't work for others, and it's up to the teacher to be able to adapt the lesson plan accordingly.

This ties into what KM mentioned about "shitty teachers mak[ing] shitty students."  Some students learn more efficiently aurally while others prefer kinesthetics, or visual cues.  Since everyone unique, it is important for teachers to capitalize on as many different angles for a given subject as possible.



--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 02, 2010, 12:37:50 am ---"Transfer", a made-up re-definition of a word, wrapped in quotation marks to emphasise this fact, designed to be highlighted in boldface in a worthless textbook, is an excuse. 

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I'm not sure if this is your intention, but this comes across as a little disrespectful.  Calling "transfer" a made-up re-definition of a word is a matter of semantics - you can make the same argument about any vocabulary word.  The whole point of the word's existence is to aide in organizing information.  To talk about it in the fashion that you chose demonstrates how little you know about teaching or about the process of learning.

There is a reason why I don't say anything about programming or coding; because I know absolutely nothing about it.


--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 02, 2010, 12:37:50 am --- Here's why: If you base your self-esteem (SELF) on what you can, and do, accomplish, then the phrase "it's not like I'll ever need to know this" is never uttered, since everything learned has the potential to become useful, albeit unexpectedly. 

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This is true, but it assumes a lot on the part of a student, such as that they have a healthy self-esteem, are cognizant of their abilities and range of potential accomplishments, and have the foresight to understand the intrinsic potential of information.

Unfortunately, many children don't work this way - particularly in middle school.  These are the same kids that don't understand that it's not healthy to have ice-cream for breakfast, or that they should exercise consistently to maintain a healthy weight as they age, or that they need to drink milk until their 30 in order to achieve maximum bone density.

They don't think about things because they're in the future, and the majority of youth aren't really interested in their future - especially in such a logical and pragmatic way.

Kids are interested in what they can apply to their lives at that moment, and if information is presented in a way that is conducive to their environment, they are more likely to make neurological connections developing relative associations, and are therefore more likely to remember it and utilize that information later on in their life.

I'm sure we've all heard "if you don't use it, you lose it" at some point in our lives.

Kids can't be forced to remember something, but I can have a hand in increasingly the likelihood that they will remember something. 



--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 02, 2010, 12:37:50 am ---
Exactly how do you propose one capitalize on a cultural value of "smart is bad?"  Excepting, of course, creating a nation of easily-controlled and easily-pacified chattle.  Futhermore, what use is "illustrat[ing] different points of view" when the student's plan for the day is "I will sit here and daydream until the bell rings because school is wasting my TV time"?


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That is an important cultural value to consider.  I won't go into deep detail as to how I would approach it, but if you're really interested you could PM me.  In more general terms, the value that you propose is just one of thousands to consider.  For example, different approaches to religion / spirituality, socio-economic status, gender roles, and cultural hierarchal structure are just a few sub-headings of culture that teachers need to address and adapt their lesson plans to reflect.

Ideally, incorporating different points of view is done in a meaningful, interesting, and engaging way.  Even if a student is half-way interested, they're bound to learn something.  If they are as deeply removed from the class as you may suggest, then they may either have an behavioral concern that should be addressed via an IEP, or other extraneous circumstances.

Keeping things in general terms, having more points of view is like having multiple pictures showing different parts of the same object.  You'll see more information that way, and you'll have a more comprehensive understand of that object.  Learning in a similar fashion enables a similar function.


--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 02, 2010, 12:37:50 am ---Before distracting ourselves with salary figures, let us establish that, in general, a serious lack of financial discipline has created a madness that mistakes discretionary expenditures for necessary expenditures; e.g., no, you do not HAVE TO afford cable TV, a vacation journey, personal cell phones for every member of the family, or a new vehicle, when you have the option of renting a book from the library, relaxing at home, sharing a phone, or maintaining your current vehicle.  While arguing "more" or "less" money as compensation for higher- or lower-quality work is fine, citing numbers is unfounded without adjustments for the earner's family type, regional cost-of-living, etc.

--- End quote ---

That's one of the great things about America, is that you can be as obnoxious as you want to be, and as long as you don't infringe on the rights of others, you're welcome to be that way.  I agree that many people spend their money on things that they don't need.  It's easy to poke holes and point fingers, but something that I would like to start seeing are good people that ask questions like, "What are we going to do about it?" and "How can we fix it?"

As for wages or whatever, I just wanted to give you guys an idea (in case you didn't know) of average beginner teacher compensation.  My brother is an Aerospace Engineer, and his beginning salary was....well...let's just say much more comfortable.

That being said, having a lower salary is kind of a good weeding-out mechanism; because obviously people aren't doing it for the money, so they must be doing it for the love of teaching and for the opportunity to influence others' lives.



I definitely agree with you guys that the educational system could be better - I'd love to see music considered a requirement.  That being said, I think it's important to remember that yes, there are a lot of crappy teachers out there, and yes, students are responsible for their own education - as KM mentioned in his anecdote, the most successful education is one that is independent, and self-motivated; and yes, parents can be blamed as well - but there are also very good teachers out there, the ones trying to make a difference, and the ones that genuinely care about their students.

We need more good teachers.

VC:

--- Quote ---For example, it's important to include high and low-incidence disabilities, social variables, environmental variables, and learning styles.  What works for some kids doesn't work for others, and it's up to the teacher to be able to adapt the lesson plan accordingly.
--- End quote ---
Issues like disability are special cases and should be treated as such.  Need for accomodation for 1% of the population does not mean a fix for the other 99% is suddenly invalid.  Social and environmental variables I have already addressed.

Learning styles is one I can speak from with personal experience.  For someone who seems to be really into math, a mighty F on my college record in math would seem anomalous.  Put two next to each other and bricks are shat.  Long story short, the first class I should have dropped because the professor was too old to hear or speak, I thought I could handle it and didn't want to lose the time.  I choose poorly.  The second time through was a replacement professor who was too busy talking about what his grad students were doing.

The textbooks were no good to me.  The single concept that was stonewalling me was explained years later by a 5" x 8" x 0.6" book being thrown away by the local community college.  I read it during jury duty waits and now calc is my playground.  In retrospect it seems embarassingly obvious, but at the time, I simply did not make the assumption that was so "normal" to make that when I asked my teachers about it, they had no clue what I was talking about.

If I were to address the "learning styles" issue, it would be quite simple: ensure that there are at least three textbook options.  I like my books short, dense, and explicit.  (Everything I know about programming I learned from a pocket-guide or short online article.)  Others may be better off with something filled with examples and pretty pictures, and yet others with a "Dummies" guide that is written in the everyday vernacular.

But we can't have that!  We must contracturally guarantee per-class profits for the publishers!  Meanwhile, I consider my success in life irrevocably stunted because I didn't find the world's smallest calculus book before it was too late.

Also, as a side-effect, if students were using different books, they would be asking different questions and sharing different perspectives.  How could we keep those young minds aligned and under control?


--- Quote ---Transfer
--- End quote ---
Hippie jargon rubs me wrongly.  Ignore my moments of misdirected hostility.  They pass quickly.


--- Quote ---This is true, but it assumes a lot on the part of a student ...
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All that follows the ellipses is the responsibility of the parent.  Oh, wait, we traded them for TV and a culture that puts so much focus on public-esteem-by-owning-things that most families have two earners or so much stress that they fracture.  Good job, America!


--- Quote ---For example, different approaches to religion / spirituality, socio-economic status, gender roles, and cultural hierarchal structure are just a few sub-headings of culture that teachers need to address and adapt their lesson plans to reflect.
--- End quote ---
I think we are facing different directions on this.  My opinion is that tolerating someone who believes in a different diety and tolerating someone who believes that The Bachelor is a more valuable broadcast than Charlie Rose are two seperate issues.

Religion, wealth, and gender are cultural issues, and may come into play at the collegiate level involving certain courses, but they do not play a factor in basic education.  The Flying Spagetti Monster and Allah do not argue about how addition works.  Being poor does not mean you are suddenly incapable of learning to perform math; though it does mean you can't give Texas Instruments their contracturally-guaranteed $90 for a calculator that you should not need.  Being a girl does not make math hard.

We may also be interpreting the concept of "points of view" differently; I am all for attacking a problem from all sides, but I do not see merit in impeding a lesson to leap backwards and repeat it from a different, and possibly conflicting, subjective viewpoint.  That sort of thing belongs exclusively in social studies and humanities classes.  I may be biased, however, due to experiences in my high school epoch.  Let's just say one teacher wanted us to feel a particular way about another culture, and I put it into objective perspective with the style and flair you would expect from me.  (Known as a "hard-ass" teacher, she and I got along quite well after that.)


--- Quote ---We need more good teachers.
--- End quote ---
We need fewer bad ones.  Even middling teachers would be acceptable as long as they operate under supervision to ensure that they are getting the job done.  What is killing us is the bad teachers that are being ignored because of politics.  They are releasing students who did not learn the course material, and they arrive on the doorstep of the next teacher with holes in their heads; even a great teacher cannot mend them while moving forward.

Overall, the ratio of bad:okay:great teachers in my history is probably 1:6:3.  But those one in ten devistated the lives of myself and every other student who was condemned to cross his and her paths.

jjmusicnotes:

--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 03, 2010, 06:02:30 pm --- Need for accomodation for 1% of the population does not mean a fix for the other 99% is suddenly invalid.

--- End quote ---

Actually, the percentage is closer to 20% of the student population, and that percentage only pertains to students with some form of disability.  The other 80% of students require adaptation as well, but of a different nature.


--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 03, 2010, 06:02:30 pm ---Learning styles is one I can speak from with personal experience. 

 I like my books short, dense, and explicit.  (Everything I know about programming I learned from a pocket-guide or short online article.)

Meanwhile, I consider my success in life irrevocably stunted because I didn't find the world's smallest calculus book before it was too late.

--- End quote ---

It's really cool that you were able to figure what worked for you - albeit a little later than what would have been convenient.  This is what I was referring to about teachers adapting education to make information relative to students - both in practicality as well as presentation. 

It's really unfortunate that the majority of teachers (as well as people's expectations of teachers,) illustrate someone at the front of a room monotonously driveling through textbook material.  That's stale teaching, and stale teaching is going to yield stale students.


--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 03, 2010, 06:02:30 pm ---Oh, wait, we traded them for TV and a culture that puts so much focus on public-esteem-by-owning-things that most families have two earners or so much stress that they fracture.

--- End quote ---

Agreed.


--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 03, 2010, 06:02:30 pm ---The Flying Spagetti Monster and Allah do not argue about how addition works.  Being poor does not mean you are suddenly incapable of learning to perform math;

--- End quote ---

No, but a student that comes from a culture where it's rude to make eye contact or discouraged to ask questions or contribute are all intrinsic cultural traits that not only affect the relationship between the student and teacher, but also the student's ability to learn.


--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 03, 2010, 06:02:30 pm ---We may also be interpreting the concept of "points of view" differently;

--- End quote ---

You are right, we are!  :P  I was referring to presenting things aurally, visually, kinesthetically, and tactilely.


--- Quote from: Viashino Cutthroat on October 03, 2010, 06:02:30 pm ---Overall, the ratio of bad:okay:great teachers in my history is probably 1:6:3.  But those one in ten devistated the lives of myself and every other student who was condemned to cross his and her paths.

--- End quote ---

Aye.  It's amazing how 1 poor teacher can supersede 6 good ones.  If you ask people what they thought of certain teachers they had, no one will tell you "Oh, this one had a great lesson plan on Manifest Destiny."  You'll hear stuff like, "oh he was hilarious," or "she was such a jerk."  Students remember the quality of the content of the teacher's character more than anything they taught them.

To think that teachers are only responsible for teaching what's in a book is ridiculous.

VC:

--- Quote ---the percentage is closer to 20%
--- End quote ---
Hippy definitions of "disability" don't apply in my presence.  Diabled means "too blind to read" or "can't hear instruction," or "autistic to a degree that any significant sensory input triggers an incapacitating reaction," not "doesn't sit down because it doesn't want to sit and isn't punished for misbehaving" or "is quieter when on medication."  Everyone gets a different set of challenges at different levels of difficulty, and whatever they may be, only you can truly overcome them and survive as an independant being; you have to draw the line somewhere on this issue.  I put it behind "could use assistance" and before "must have assistance."


--- Quote ---That's stale teaching
--- End quote ---
Verily.  The students should be studying the book and using the teacher as a clarification and example-demonstration tool.  So many high school hours I can remember being squandered taking turns reading a paragraph from the book.  Good lord.  That is what we did in kindergarten, because the lesson plan was "learn to read."


--- Quote ---a student that comes from a culture where it's rude to make eye contact or discouraged to ask questions or contribute are all intrinsic cultural traits that not only affect the relationship between the student and teacher, but also the student's ability to learn.
--- End quote ---
True.  The solution is to excise those particular traits from that culture and replace them with methods that work in the person's favor.  Ever hear the phrase "melting pot" in reference to the early United States, particularly during the heavy-immigration period?  That was an era of mixing dozens of cultures, and for each aspect, choosing one or two of the dozen that work well.  The ones that qualified became the unique American culture.  Indeed, it has been an endless competition between desire to advance and desire to maintain tradition, but all-in-all it was working pretty well until suddenly it became politically illegal to say "I think my way is better, why don't you try it?"  It takes a little humility to admit the way Your People do things isn't perfect, but as with the teacher issue, fixing one small problem often leads to a great overall improvement.


--- Quote ---To think that teachers are only responsible for teaching what's in a book is ridiculous.
--- End quote ---
Not when you are a school-board member who would rather deal with parent complaints by saying "we'll get a better book next year; btw, raising taxes to pay for new books lol" than admitting that you have a lame teacher, who needs to somehow be replaced despite the union that stands behind him.

TwiggyTwink:
Voting day!

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