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[RUMBL3R]

I have been playing for about a week.  I think I've logged around 10 hours or so.  I like what you guys have done and commend you on putting so much work into this.  I do feel however that maybe focus is being lost.  I do understand that you guys aren't making a clone and you have stated this before.  But let's all be realistic.  This is Goldeneye, the game that we all remember from a decade ago.  If it wasn't for the gameplay that Goldeneye had, the game wouldn't have had such a following and this mod may have never been made.  It may only be my opinion but I feel I must spout it out.  I really wish you guys would go back to basics and try to make a true Goldeneye clone.  I have played on a few maps that were 'classic' and really prefer them over the beefed up version of later betas.  I know this request may very well be lost in oblivion but maybe you'll give it some thought.  A friend of mine got the mod at the same time.  He quickly quit playing after he realized that it wasn't the Goldeneye he remembered. I do realize that this mod doesn't have a huge following and I figured this may be one of the reasons.  I know it has certainly made me think.

Thanks for your time guys!

-David

[Sp1nn3y]

It would be hard to implement an old school(i emphasize on that) 4 person maximum console game play into an open 8-20 person death math on the PC.. It's also based off of a totally different engine which means obeying the limits of Valve and it's crap is a much difficult thing as is. It's still a Beta and with the latest of Valve's "updates" we have defiantly lost a bit of interest due to that down time.. Yet as a beta i personally think it still delivers with a punch, if you think it's not as the n64 version was please let us know so we can patronize the dev's into fixing .

Remember these two words:
Beta & Free

For a free game that has been totally converted Hl2 into Goldeneye.. i say they've done a great job .

[RUMBL3R]

It would be hard to implement an old school(i emphasize on that) 4 person maximum console game play into an open 8-20 person death math on the PC.. It's also based off of a totally different engine which means obeying the limits of Valve and it's crap is a much difficult thing as is. It's still a Beta and with the latest of Valve's "updates" we have defiantly lost a bit of interest due to that down time.. Yet as a beta i personally think it still delivers with a punch, if you think it's not as the n64 version was please let us know so we can patronize the dev's into fixing .

Remember these two words:
Beta & Free

For a free game that has been totally converted Hl2 into Goldeneye.. i say they've done a great job .

I'm not taking jabs at the guys... Just wanted to give a little constructive criticism.  Yes, it is infact a free game but as we all know this doesn't mean that it cannot be questioned and reviewed.  Otherwise the forum's purpose would cease to be.

[coolDisguise]

You're right and that's why we're here - to talk about the mod.

Concerning your first post I thought it was funny, because I was thinking the same way in the beginning when I saw the changes made to (for example) facility (-> BETA 1) but as I played I realized that some new multiplayer maps (like facility_backzone for example) were really fun to play on AND of course, that changes had to be applied to maps, especially small maps. While you would play GE64 with only 4 players, GE: S is mostly like 16 man per server.
If Egyptian wasn't extended, you'd quickly get pissed because of the long hallways and the many players on the map, even in deathmatch. Fair enough, there are some 4 players-servers.
But most of the players really like larger servers. So a "solution" to your "problem" was eventually designing "classic" maps - like stack, library, basment, complex and temple already are - of the newer versions (facility, caves, egyptian) for usage on this small servers. But that's basically taking away the new stuff (map layout changes, props). Shouldn't be very hard to do, but I do not consider it that "important" at the moment since the existing maps are (at least I think so) great and there is more under construction (-> maps, weapons, skins).
Maybe there will be some more classic versions of maps in a later version, but this depends on the dev team.
In any case I think this mod is fun to play (and even more than some actual "games" that came out recently) and if you enjoyed it at least a little (and I think so, because you spent 10 hours) you might keep playing it or at least check later versions when they're released.
Was there something else bothering you beside the maps? I guess not. ^^

[killermonkey]

I agree, we have lost "focus". I think we also need to analyze, what exactly are we focusing on?

What defines classic GE64:
1. Maps
2. Weapons
3. Gameplay Options
4. The friendly competitive nature of gameplay
5. The N64

What defines GE:S
1. Maps
2. Weapons (exact/slightly massaged weapon data taken straight from the 64!)
3. Gameplay options (MANY MANY more then 64)
4. Friendly competition (refer you to the "competitive or not" thread)
5. > 4 person multiplayer

It is simply IMPOSSIBLE to replicated the N64 game, firstly what you "remember" and what is in actuality are two very different things. The N64 game would probably not be very successful if it was released now in it's state. Gameplay has changed over the past decade and we can't possibly be successful if we release a Goldeneye clone because no one would want to play that. We give the option to play classic maps, turn off jumping, and use the classic weapon sets, you really can't get much closer to that without losing the fun on the PC.

Thanks for your post

[RUMBL3R]

Was there something else bothering you beside the maps? I guess not. ^^

Well, yeah, I just didn't want to get into it all.  Some of the simpler things such as jumping, falling from certain ledges, the fact that using the aim doesn't make the weapons anymore accurate (people could just paste a dot on the screen for a crosshair and not move like a slug when aiming) and I'm sure they will be adding some of the more noticeable things such as rocket launchers and dual weapons in later builds. 

I do understand expanding the levels to accommodate modern player matches but my comment is more directed at the complexities added.  Such as all of the extra props.  Remember, I'm thinking classic.  I would be perfectly happy with replicas with simple extensions.  Take complex classic for example.  That is what I enjoy.  I don't mind if it is expanded with more rooms or what not but in the new build it has all this fancy pipe work under glass panels with lights and stuff.  And there is some button that activates a bridge.  Just takes the memories and tosses them out the window for me.

[RUMBL3R]

Gameplay has changed over the past decade and we can't possibly be successful if we release a Goldeneye clone because no one would want to play that.

You are absolutely correct when you say that gameplay has changed but one thing that hasn't changed are people's memories.  People play ROMs of old games for this very reason.  PacMan is still a fun game for this very reason.  I think that your current audience isn't exactly the people who played GE back in the late 90s.  I think that your audience currently consists of post Goldeneye players.  As most of us call the CounterStrike generation.  Nostalgia will never die.

Thanks,
David

[coolDisguise]

You are absolutely correct when you say that gameplay has changed but one thing that hasn't changed are people's memories.  People play ROMs of old games for this very reason.  PacMan is still a fun game for this very reason.  I think that your current audience isn't exactly the people who played GE back in the late 90s.  I think that your audience currently consists of post Goldeneye players.  As most of us call the CounterStrike generation.  Nostalgia will never die.

Thanks,
David

If you don't mind to take a look around, you will see that many people who play GE:S - especially those here in the forums - have played GoldenEye on their respective N64s. Most of them did as well play other FPS games and are open minded for changes that might improve our beloved GoldenEye in a way.

Well, yeah, I just didn't want to get into it all.  Some of the simpler things such as jumping, falling from certain ledges, the fact that using the aim doesn't make the weapons anymore accurate (people could just paste a dot on the screen for a crosshair and not move like a slug when aiming) and I'm sure they will be adding some of the more noticeable things such as rocket launchers and dual weapons in later builds. 

I do understand expanding the levels to accommodate modern player matches but my comment is more directed at the complexities added.  Such as all of the extra props.  Remember, I'm thinking classic.  I would be perfectly happy with replicas with simple extensions.  Take complex classic for example.  That is what I enjoy.  I don't mind if it is expanded with more rooms or what not but in the new build it has all this fancy pipe work under glass panels with lights and stuff.  And there is some button that activates a bridge.  Just takes the memories and tosses them out the window for me.

All I can say is, I was thinking EXACTLY the same once, but when you have a closer look you'll see, that jumping is (although you can disable it server side) a standard of modern FPS and there is a simple reason for this: a player just walking would be too easy. I mean you play this on your PC, although you have no crosshair you get used to it very quickly and it's way easier to kill people when they are just walking than jumping from time to time.

You may argue about the ledges but I think that's a thing that makes the map "control" very interesting - the different levels and switching between them quickly.

Aiming seems - for some weapons to increase the accurancy. But that was the same in GE64: it didn't matter whether you had activated the crosshair or not while aiming at a certain spot unless you had a weapon with zoom.

Of course ppl could have an artificial crosshair on their monitors, but it seems ridiculous. I mean: it's a game and that's sort of cheating. It's not even "good" cheating - and for those who played this mod for some time it won't make any difference whether their victims would have such an artificial crosshair or not.
It doesn't even quicken the player - when they really need to "aim" with this they will be always slower than people who instinctively "know" where their guns are pointing at.

And yes, for the props... hm.. maybe there will be some classic versions of maps without them, I really don't know, but think about them this way: tables, cupboards and stuff can act as an enhancement, since you may use them for cover. Smaller props show how much the devs love the detail and how much they care to make it look more realistic.

[Wake[of]theBunT]

Props in "classic" maps if they are chosen for insertion by the mapper are static. That is our design choice. So you wont see that many source physics affecting nostalgia in those levels.

The simple fact is what Killermonkey points out. What you 'remember' and what is are often vastly different. People with mediocre knowledge of game development will harp on their "nostalgic" feelings above any technical aspect we have already brought from n64 as options or implementations (many really). If they play our mod today and judge it only by today - well thats going to suck.. since most the servers will not give them these classic maps consistently to bulk the nostalgia as often as the newer revisioned versions.

This will sort itself out over time, when the playerbase splits in two effectively.

-Classic hardcores (4 player server preferred. NO more than 8 man)
People who want a clone and nothing more, and imo are kind of foolish to cling so much to the past

-Goldeneye: Source fans. (8-16 / if not Teamplay = up to 24 man)
People who get we are modding a source conversion and its on PC and there is value to making more than n64 playerlimits available to masses.

When the server/player climate gets to this stage, you should not be so troubled.

[PPK]

I understand the many points of view exposed in this thread. It is nostalgic to play GE:S since it reminds you of GE007, a game many of us played back in the day and loved.

I personally consider this mod to be more of a re-envisioning of the original formula. GE007 was known for its outstanding multiplayer capabilities and its simple yet engaging game mechanics. I think that what the team has accomplished is great, since they picked up the original formula and worked it to fit modern gameplay demands, such as online gaming.

I do agree that some maps are small for some player counts we see on some servers, like small maps for 16 people, but that is a question of educating the server hosts.

GoldenEye: Source is about upgrading the classic N64 game in order to bring it up for today's standards. It is an amazing creativity exercise executed by the developers, since they have not only recreated the core aspects that defined GE007 but also introduced new ones that greatly enhance the playing experience. And new concepts are to come, from what I can read on the boards here.

The classic version of the maps is another thing that caught my attention. It is good for those who have low frame rates and also introduces more nostalgia into the mod.

Talking about classic maps, is the team planning on introducing classic versions of all maps, including those that weren't originally on multiplayer (such as Cradle and Facility Backzone)?

[killermonkey]

We plan on introducing all the classic MULTIPLAYER maps at least, we already have a few: facility, complex, stack, basement, library

Some maps, like my all-time favorite, bunker will be making an appearance at some point. It's impossible to tell at this point what maps will be released with the next patch/Beta, but rest assured we should have more classic offerings soon.

[VC]

"the fact that using the aim doesn't make the weapons anymore accurate"

With these words, you forfieted all street cred.  Go see how the golden gun reacts to being sighted and unsighted.

[Rodney 1.666]

Agreed with reply #4.


The only way to get it any more cloned would be to go with the most absolute minimal graphics settings possible.

For the purposes of this TC, the features it does have need to stay put. It would have a far lesser fan base if it were cloned to the specs of GE007, especially with the mass of ignorance out there who require über graphics and every move the body is capable of just to have fun.
Hell, enough people complain about its current state.

Not that ideas should halt because of the opinions of those who don't understand the TC, but there's a line where so few people care for it that it hurts the project.


I see where you're coming from, but cloning just would not reap the rewards of the TC's potential.
Best leave GE007 to the N64, whether it be cartridge or ROM.

[Sp1nn3y]

"the fact that using the aim doesn't make the weapons anymore accurate"

With these words, you forfieted all street cred.  Go see how the golden gun reacts to being sighted and unsighted.

QFT i was waiting on vc to post.. i remember a quite large in game convorsation with the dev's here talking about how alot of the pistols aim better and etc

[Rodney 1.666]

I forgot to quote something in my post:

"When people jump into our game they go 'Oh yeah this is the game that, I imagined it was 10 years ago.' -Spider

One of the policies of GE:S is to recreate GE007 so you don't need to use your imagination so much.

[Jonathan [Spider]]

I've generally explained the attitude of the GES to be kind of like the old VW bug and the new Beetle





yea its a bit different, but there's so many things that bring back old memory's of the car you loved before. the entire goal of the project has always been "if rare was around today, how would they make GE64.
so while we will never make a 100% clone just in the HL2 engine we are always trying to hit the key points to be able to try to push the nostalgia as much as possible. if you have any ideas on how to do that, we are always open to hear them.

you mentioned that you don't like how the new levels are to detailed, but thats one of those things we feel that rare, and a contemporary audience wants in the game. but for those who don't want that we have the classic maps so we kind of give you the best of both worlds in that regard.

[jjmusicnotes]

yea its a bit different, but there's so many things that bring back old memory's of the car you loved before. the entire goal of the project has always been "if rare was around today, how would they make GE64.
so while we will never make a 100% clone just in the HL2 engine we are always trying to hit the key points to be able to try to push the nostalgia as much as possible. if you have any ideas on how to do that, we are always open to hear them.

you mentioned that you don't like how the new levels are to detailed, but thats one of those things we feel that rare, and a contemporary audience wants in the game. but for those who don't want that we have the classic maps so we kind of give you the best of both worlds in that regard.

I second this entirely.  I remember the very first time I played GE:S, and was absolutely floored by the attention to detail of maps that I loved so much.  I remember walking through each of the levels, and running to specific parts to "see if they remembered to get this," and every single time, everything was always where I expected it to be.

I remember walking through the facility map for the first time, and being absolutely stunned by the added architecture, aesthetics, and atmosphere.  I thought to myself "this is the way the level should have always been made," and I thought to myself that if Rare had the technology that we have today then, the map would have looked very similar.

I spent a lot of time offline, just walking around the maps, enjoying all the familiar textures, innovative design, and props.  Everything just seemed to work, and it was exciting to see such an over-the-top reproduction of my favorite bond game of the series.  I've played almost all of them, and GE is still my favorite.

Those who nay-say this mod and the team creating it, are merely demonstrating how little of a relationship they had with the original game.  They don't appreciate the nostalgia that the team is working so hard to recreate and re-envision for a younger generation - and while constructive criticism should be a healthy part of any project, complaining about things for the sake of complaining lends itself into being tangled up in noise.

[VC]

"demonstrating how little of a relationship they had with the original game."

++rep

[keefy]

Most movies I have wastched have a VW of some sort in it.
If not VW its a Volvo.

[double0killa]

all i got to say is I play the original version of the game ALMOST EVERYDAY at work. Yea, when work is slow, we pass the time with a good game of what is most likely, THE GREATEST GAME OF ALL TIME.

Trust me when i tell you. this game is as close as a  remake comes to the original. Keep in mind the devs DO NOT USE RARE'S ENGINE.  From what i understand, they cant do but so much because of Valve's restrictions.  Whatever the case may be, the levels are done well. I like to remix of the complex and facility. 

Anyone who was a die hard GE fan of the 64 would love this game.
Its not a exact copy, but neither is that Peyton Manning jersey you wear.......